Having a team in a new location is exciting, but it needs to be remembered that without the century+ of development through schools and grass roots amateur clubs in the heartlands, then these new teams will run out of players.

If Toronto had started off with a team full of Canadian union converts with a smattering of NFL players, they'd still be playing in C1. The illusion that they started at the bottom is exactly that, an illusion. I've yet to see a successful club built from the top down...well, not one that isn't losing money by the barrow load.

Aha! The first criticism that you have ever made of Gutterfax/Call Me God/AXE2GRIND. It's been a long time coming.

BTW, what is a "fook?"

YOU!!





BTW - It's not criticism at all ,I do get what is being said, but all these paragraphs are just not necessary.

You owe me a new keyboard

So being French is the same as being a "fook?"

Bradford's success in SL brought through star players from their academy, Burgesses, Whitehead, Bateman etc on their demise the best lads left and the academy stopped producing any pro level players, contrast the interest in RL in Bradford during the years they were competitive and crowds going over 20,000 with the interest now with crowds going towards 2,000. Then you need to ask yourself if kids in Bradford are turning to Rugby league in the numbers they were doing 10 years ago. Are they??

If TWP reach the heights of success and support Bradford did ask yourself how many players they will produce?? Or how many fans they will bring here? What do you think??, or whether they will be able to buy them in from Bradford? Repeat that with more overseas clubs in Superleague replacing M62 clubs and the crowds will fall here and the player supply will reduce alarmingly.This isn't "expansion" is it?? It's contraction of the player development system and crowds. The only thing TWP expand is travel distances and costs - think about it and it will become clear?

The Burgesses were born into a family of Leeds fans and played their junior rugby in Dewsbury. Had they not been signed by Bradford because they were struggling, it's a huge leap to suggest that they'd have been lost to the game.

Like I say, there are lots of reasons why junior participation is falling, but foreign expansion is way, way down the list. Talk about dealing with societal changes, demographic changes, competition from other sports and activities, the declining relevance of RL nationally first and then, once you've addressed those, maybe foreign clubs are next on the agenda as reasons for falling participation.

As for the "how many fans do they bring here" thing, that's old ground. It's systematic of the zero-growth thinking endemic in the English game that the issue of away fans keeps coming up as reasons for rising/falling crowds. There's no excuse for clubs not looking to fill the away end with locals - not a single one

Expansion can be an easy, lazy excuse if you want it to be, but it can just as easily be a huge positive. How many other sports offer a talented kid from the North of England the chance to live in and play professional sports in New York?

Overseas expansion is not a factor in falling participation, yet.
However, IF we have 4/5 N.American sides, in a 12 club top flight, who, for whatever reason, dont produce any juniors, there will be a huge problem and to deny it, is just being massively naïve.
The strength and weakness in RL has been it's ingrained roots in the North of England, with it's local rivalries and having a tight knit sport.
It's inability to expand beyond these roots, has largely been due to the power and spread of Union, which has ensured that RL is the (very) poor relation to a game which has a much wider base and if you go back 20/30 years, there was no plan to advance the game, which has left the sport "tailed off" in last position.
There were huge mistakes made within the games administration, in allowing the demise of the international game, something which has only started to be addressed in recent years and some huge strategic errors.
There needs to be a well planned and open strategy to move us forward but, right now, we are "throwing everything" at the N. American dream.

If it were closer to home, say in Europe, it would be fantastic for the game but, the logistics of progressing the game over there are an extremely difficult, maybe impossible fit - even the concept of a transatlantic league is flawed but, lets see how it unfolds.

What we MUST do is ensure that we dont completely kill the game in the UK while chasing this very unlikely dream, because if things go wrong over there, it will be too late to rescue the professional game in the UK.

That's an enourmous IF. SL has even changed it's regulations. What you're proposing would go against point 2.7 of [url=https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/JF1O6j0KVqhvV9xGT7q-9NlJwhcwkN3_ff0v8dsdrr4/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3GJLI6HII%2F20191204%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20191204T091504Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEPX%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQDhHCBNy2BYaBFNInwiR3pBGRNEa9Lj%2Bgq1sBU5YdoELAIhAOTcrgiIsQgAQhjHup3RRxMX5f2LzYJZdaPh19iFsbCjKtACCD0QAhoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgz%2B4G3DuoguM5P9Bh0qrQLwwCBchuQPphF4BYcWwRuv42kWpqgrgFVyg2QKWCq5V11e6bOHFaweJ9bZOWVtDBvsD5yYx2KbazPT4BF%2BC3i2GrcOOmVZjfzjYqmDgiQ6goD0grTdo8li58oySRL1L7NjWycQh3SKlkSerg1ftbWB3m%2Bdn1rllv2tqrOazR0zcZ5znKNrBLIeyClmAMK09uMxU9wQkyjKR0cflwwlKDT3syN116EeTv4hu61uAlEmpJxjibLE99FkCwWJOZTcnSG%2BrHkc6%2BWTGZAREXhKl3vD7fEiHcK5yGKVgw%2FdKi443MCI5xZgIbujUUtHkkW9l10amUZ3ZN7J2AHKv3yV%2BbLeAeiyR0Ou8uhYyl5rK7ECx7p9bXLvf6QCpRlslMSnzMOMYvcAY5hxE5gLqdJIML7vnO8FOs4ChqQEv%2FxvTUGdxd%2BzAb3RKDrqfpj468SGTwq1jeC3%2BOq%2BLKQsE4ZBukPOpiMT6qKsr%2FHKMjy1iOnVBBlMcgASw%2BNT0hT2evZlFxuVU8ugAHRzkJZbLkSrr8YQhHc0T2p60q%2Bs5MViL0swoqrSWH97tVP%2FzsiN9gipjrfOi0zj%2BEOcQ3GtBXkydrgxWNm1G7ClbVFYii7CsuVhKqNlMc8bRlDcWRzmftr9Ux3veIm6H9w6dZATLqXaW07ZGmv5MnlrnLp0SuVbf3hOLhek6BcqU8EuZKRpcpGKP0yhCRYSXURHUDnsTX%2B8CxSz%2Fa%2FcL3Gg%2BgkIeHp2crzr1OIy9P7OhIx83Sx5HG7wZs0FNaxUEK9MVhd25PQbyf0v8F7E9Yj9JXWW8BeTlQkFeCyd02TMcOIMjaI%2FVW9Jkq3USLTWmaPQxYWfoFhBv95BA6%2B8HA%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=76bca33dc5763ea550d4d4eacd301a376f36ead7dae8109b5fd152d8535acd11this document[/url filed with Companies House by Super League Europe in October this year.


I disagree. If we're blaming rugby union or the state of the game, we're missing the point entirely.

The failure to grow the sport is a combination of parochialism, a hostility to outsiders and zero-growth thinking. Rugby union is not responsible for any of that. The answers are looking back at us in the mirror.

I'd say the local rivalries are a strength, but not necessarily [ithe [/istrength - or at least they shouldn't be. The strength should be the quality of the product, the talent on offer and the competition. The local rivalry element is just a layer on top of that.



The only people who seem to be throwing anything, never mind "everything" at the North American dream is David Argyle. Ricky Wilby and Eric Perez. Those three people do not represent any sort of "we". The cost to any club has, at worst, been nil.



Nobody is saying that North America doesn't come with risks. But the risks of progressing with NA are nothing compared to the risks of not continuing how we are.



And we're back to this "focus on the heartlands" argument - which would be fine if anyone making that argument could actually explain how that takes the sport forward. "Focusing on the heartlands" has got the sport where it is today. What this whole argument seems to boil down to is "I don't want new clubs raising standards to a level my club isn't willing/able to reach and they might take my clubs place". Well, sorry, that isn't a way to run a professional sport.

No, I'm not saying focus on the heartlands, just protect them until we know where the hell the game is going.
As for "running a professional club", if Toronto were English and not fielding the range of academy sides etc, they wouldn't be allowed to compete in the top flight - due to their geographical location, they are coming to the party without bringing anything, other than pockets stuffed with cash.
Clearly no club trained players ?? academy sides ?? unable to play a full set of "home" fixtures ??

This level of dispensation would not be granted to ANY UK club and you know it.

The precedent set with Toronto is that anyone with a pile of cash can set up a "club" anywhere in the world and dictate their own criteria, rather than comply with the hard and fast rules that are enforce for every other club.??

No other sport would roll with this but RL, as usual, is desperate for a quick fix.

btw, your link doesn't work.

Quote wrencat1873="wrencat1873"No, I'm not saying focus on the heartlands, just protect them until we know where the hell the game is going. As for "running a professional club", if Toronto were English and not fielding the range of academy sides etc, they wouldn't be allowed to compete in the top flight - due to their geographical location, they are coming to the party without bringing anything, other than pockets stuffed with cash. Clearly no club trained players ?? academy sides ?? unable to play a full set of "home" fixtures ?? This level of dispensation would not be granted to ANY UK club and you know it. '" Who is the "we" that decides which direction the game is going in your eyes? The Super League clubs decided that it should be them but they, along with Elstone, seem to have made barely any progress in coming up with a growth strategy beyond a shot clock and a new logo. Everything is focused not on growth, but protectionism. Whilst every sport around us has grown, RL continues to retreet into its shell, fearful of what the outsiders might bring. Quote wrencat1873As for "running a professional club", if Toronto were English and not fielding the range of academy sides etc, they wouldn't be allowed to compete in the top flight - due to their geographical location, they are coming to the party without bringing anything, other than pockets stuffed with cash. Clearly no club trained players ?? academy sides ?? unable to play a full set of "home" fixtures ??'" They're bringing new fans to the sport, new demographics to the sport, wider media reach to the sport and they're bringing marquee talents to the sport. How many heartland clubs can you say are ticking even one of those boxes, let along all of them? Do you see Toronto Wolfpack holding press conferences outside vending machines that look like a committee meeting at the Phoenix Club? No, because they get it. As I said above, to expect the club to start producing players after less than three years is an impossible expectation. Look at other expansion sides - London, Melbourne as an example - it's going to be a generation before we see the first Canadian SL-standard player. There are clubs in SL, or making claims that the should be in SL, that don't run academies, that have barely contributed to the elite player talent pool, clubs that can't play home games because the football club says no. These dispensations HAVE been granted to UK clubs, and you know it. Quote wrencat1873btw, your link doesn't work.'" Serves me for relying on a GOV.uk site. It's the resolution doc here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

Quote wrencat1873="wrencat1873"No, I'm not saying focus on the heartlands, just protect them until we know where the hell the game is going. As for "running a professional club", if Toronto were English and not fielding the range of academy sides etc, they wouldn't be allowed to compete in the top flight - due to their geographical location, they are coming to the party without bringing anything, other than pockets stuffed with cash. Clearly no club trained players ?? academy sides ?? unable to play a full set of "home" fixtures ?? This level of dispensation would not be granted to ANY UK club and you know it. '" Who is the "we" that decides which direction the game is going in your eyes? The Super League clubs decided that it should be them but they, along with Elstone, seem to have made barely any progress in coming up with a growth strategy beyond a shot clock and a new logo. Everything is focused not on growth, but protectionism. Whilst every sport around us has grown, RL continues to retreet into its shell, fearful of what the outsiders might bring. Quote wrencat1873As for "running a professional club", if Toronto were English and not fielding the range of academy sides etc, they wouldn't be allowed to compete in the top flight - due to their geographical location, they are coming to the party without bringing anything, other than pockets stuffed with cash. Clearly no club trained players ?? academy sides ?? unable to play a full set of "home" fixtures ??'" They're bringing new fans to the sport, new demographics to the sport, wider media reach to the sport and they're bringing marquee talents to the sport. How many heartland clubs can you say are ticking even one of those boxes, let along all of them? Do you see Toronto Wolfpack holding press conferences outside vending machines that look like a committee meeting at the Phoenix Club? No, because they get it. As I said above, to expect the club to start producing players after less than three years is an impossible expectation. Look at other expansion sides - London, Melbourne as an example - it's going to be a generation before we see the first Canadian SL-standard player. There are clubs in SL, or making claims that the should be in SL, that don't run academies, that have barely contributed to the elite player talent pool, clubs that can't play home games because the football club says no. These dispensations HAVE been granted to UK clubs, and you know it. Quote wrencat1873btw, your link doesn't work.'" Serves me for relying on a GOV.uk site. It's the resolution doc here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

Your determined to argue the NA dream passionately, but your not answering the counter points or how we got where we are now. RL started off in 1896 in competition with RU, and over the years many attempts have been made to expand all over the country and abroad. Far from "[ifocusing on the heartlands[/i" the fact is the "heartlands" is the only place RL has worked in the Northern Hemisphere. Elsewhere in the Northern Hemisphere Union is the game that has beaten us so the reality is we have to make the best of those heartlands. Your view of TWP as a success is not reality either....

1. They haven't even had a smell of a paying TV deal and admit there's no prospect of one.
2. They failed on any player development and not only admit this but don't bother with it now.
3. They have lost £5M failing on their own measures of success and are set for those losses to climb to £10M this season.

With respect we can't move our conversation on if you keep ignoring the above realities, not even TWP are denying the above is how it is........