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| FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > SuperLeague is JUST starting in S. Wales |
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Have heard today that the Crusaders look like moving lock stock and barrel to Wrexham where the money man there is Geoff Moss who heads up Elegant Resorts in Chester.
Newport could not raise the cash however they are looking to play three or four games in South Wales however it stills needs Leighton Samuels to sell the shares and the problem is Wrexham are willing to take most of the debt but not pay for doing so
Two are in the frame for a new Championship 1 side in South Wales one being a former director of the Ospreys who has fallen out with them.
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| Quote: Catalancs "
Two are in the frame for a new Championship 1 side in South Wales one being a former director of the Ospreys who has fallen out with them.'"
That's good news, although always got to be wary of people that have fallen out, though multiple interest is good news. Do you know where they're likely to be based? Assume it's just one club for now, but 2 at that level would be a possibility in the future.
Is this for next year or 2011? | | |
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| Quote: bowes "That's good news, although always got to be wary of people that have fallen out, though multiple interest is good news. Do you know where they're likely to be based? Assume it's just one club for now, but 2 at that level would be a possibility in the future.
Is this for next year or 2011?'"
Very true. Samuels fell out with the the Welsh rugby union over the Warriors rugby union set up didn't he?
Not sure when any news teams would be looking to enter the Championship (1). 2011 would seem a sensible idea. | | |
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| Quote: Johnoco "Is RL not 114 years old then? Why is it so geographically limited then? Because of it's inclusive nature?'"
This is possibly one of the most ignorant posts I have read on here from someone who claims to be knowledgable about the game's history.
The only reason you are questioning an "inclusive nature" is because it would fit in nicely with your theory that the vast majority of rugby fans don't agree with plonking a rugby team in a new area with no planning but a rich backer (for now) which somehow makes them inclusive flatcappers. My whole theory behind the continuum and how anyone to the otherside of someone's place on it is a flatcapper seems to be working rather well again here!
Why is it so geographically limited? You have to look at the obstacles to answer that question. You blame RL's inclusive nature, but if it was inclusive, would we try and set up teams in South Wales, etc? And how does us being inclusive stop them from supporting these ventures? Did you ever stop to think that maybe the lack of a free gangway between rugby league and rugby union might have had something to do with it? How many people would want to come and try this new and unproven game at the risk of not being able to go back to their old game due to restrictions? Then there is the lack of a media presence, lack of finance, lack of a decent administration, and it soon seems to make more sense as to the reasons why RL has struggled to grow up until the 90s. 114 years becomes 22 years.
Considering people are saying it can take about that long for a club to become established anyway in the bottom-up fashion, and the amount of times we've squandered money on quick fix top-down expansion, maybe the teams might have been coming through by now. If we'd have layed that money into the foundations from DAY ONE, we might start to see the rewards coming through. As it is, we've never really gone all out on grassroots but instead gone for the top-down rushed methods that have continually failed.
So basically, my answer to the ignorant question is that it is because we as a sport have had more obstacles to overcome than most other sports in our 114 year history, and now that we finally have a good position to expand, we blow it on trying to rush things. | | | |
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| Quote: Roy Haggerty "I think you are making my point for me. People who decry the current methods of attempting expansion always suggest that there's another, better, way forward. Yet there isn't a single example of a top flight club being created through any other method than the current, flawed, risky, top-down method. So to say, this way shouldn't be done, the other way is beter, is just guff. There isn't another way. And opponents of expansion should be honest enough to say that - saying that we shouldn't try to expand through the likes fo Celtic and Catalans is essentially saying we shouldn't try to expand, full stop.'"
People that oppose the top-down method of expansion don't oppose expansion. This is another case of the "if you don't agree with the super rushed expansion*zi type expansion-at-all-costs method then you oppose expansion/are a flatcapper" that goes along with my continuum theory.
And the myth about "there isn't a single example of the bottom-up method working" is back. Bradford, Castleford, Huddersfield, Hull FC, Hull KR, Leeds, Salford, Wakefield, Warrington and Wigan. 10 teams out of 14 that went from amateur to semi-pro to full time rugby clubs and are still here. They certainly weren't top-down.
And the fact that you are trying to compare Celtic with Catalans is an absolute joke. It really is embarrassing that you are trying to say that adding Celtic, a club formed 4 years ago that dominated the lower leagues on the back of a rich-backer and no local players, is the same as Catalans, a club formed by the merger 8 years ago between a club 74 years old and a club 44 years old and joined a year later by another club in an area steeped in rugby league tradition and already has a fairly large talent pool to pull from that just needed to step up to full-time training.
Celtic joining SL is in NO WAY the same as Catalans. They are not even nearly identical. Catalans is in a well established rugby league area of France. Celtic was located in a pretty baron area of rugby league in Britain.
I want rugby league to expand. This is why I oppose views such as plonking teams in areas and hoping for the best. I think top-down can work in some instances. But not in the way the RFL has continued to progress with it. It has NEVER worked, so why not look for new ways? | | |
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Catalancs, REALLY? Say it ain't so!
The former director of the Arsepreys would be Mike Cuddy and he is a FAR bigger p*r*i*c*k than Leighton Samuel. ABSOLUTELY loathed by everyone in Bridgend.
Samuel screwed up the Warriors by selling them to the WRU. Cuddy part funded the buy-out (along with all the Union "regional" "benefactors"icon_wink.gif on the assumption that against all WRU promises, the club would be shut down and their resources shared out amongst all the conspirators. Bridgend Ravens then became part of the Arsepreys "region" and were ignored by our new "masters" apart from harvesting all our best players. Bridgend were relegated last year.
I can tell you ocnfidently that NO RL pro club will succeed in S Wales unless Bridgend supports it. And Bridgend f*u*c*k*i*n*g HATES Jabba Cuddy.
Personally I'd like to beat Mike Cuddy to death using Leighton Samuel as a weapon.
So that's it then. The insular parochial flatcappers have won! There is NO future for RL in Wales.
With the exceptions of Dragons and Quins, the triumphant flatcappers can now comfortably walk to all away fixtures, without distrurbing the ferrets in their trousers, release their homing pigeons and walk home again before their clogs start to spark.
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| Quote: Grendel "Catalancs, REALLY? Say it ain't so!
The former director of the Arsepreys would be Mike Cuddy and he is a FAR bigger p*r*i*c*k than Leighton Samuel. ABSOLUTELY loathed by everyone in Bridgend.
Samuel screwed up the Warriors by selling them to the WRU. Cuddy part funded the buy-out (along with all the Union "regional" "benefactors"icon_wink.gif on the assumption that against all WRU promises, the club would be shut down and their resources shared out amongst all the conspirators. Bridgend Ravens then became part of the Arsepreys "region" and were ignored by our new "masters" apart from harvesting all our best players. Bridgend were relegated last year.
I can tell you ocnfidently that NO RL pro club will succeed in S Wales unless Bridgend supports it. And Bridgend f*u*c*k*i*n*g HATES Jabba Cuddy.
Personally I'd like to beat Mike Cuddy to death using Leighton Samuel as a weapon.'"
So you don't like him then? forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0
That's only one which I found after about 5 minutes looking. The site doesn't seem to have much before then, and I didn't want to spend too much of my Saturday digging it all out, but anyone who was knocking around the boards in 2003-2006 can recall how Catalans would never work because of all the reasons which are currently being cited as to why Crusaders could never work.
Never assume that just because you are consistent, that other people cannot be hypocritical. |
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Quote: Wellsy13 "People that oppose the top-down method of expansion don't oppose expansion. This is another case of the "if you don't agree with the super rushed expansion*zi type expansion-at-all-costs method then you oppose expansion/are a flatcapper" that goes along with my continuum theory.
And the myth about "there isn't a single example of the bottom-up method working" is back. Bradford, Castleford, Huddersfield, Hull FC, Hull KR, Leeds, Salford, Wakefield, Warrington and Wigan. 10 teams out of 14 that went from amateur to semi-pro to full time rugby clubs and are still here. They certainly weren't top-down.
And the fact that you are trying to compare Celtic with Catalans is an absolute joke. It really is embarrassing that you are trying to say that adding Celtic, a club formed 4 years ago that dominated the lower leagues on the back of a rich-backer and no local players, is the same as Catalans, a club formed by the merger 8 years ago between a club 74 years old and a club 44 years old and joined a year later by another club in an area steeped in rugby league tradition and already has a fairly large talent pool to pull from that just needed to step up to full-time training.
Celtic joining SL is in NO WAY the same as Catalans. They are not even nearly identical. Catalans is in a well established rugby league area of France. Celtic was located in a pretty baron area of rugby league in Britain.
I want rugby league to expand. This is why I oppose views such as plonking teams in areas and hoping for the best. I think top-down can work in some instances. But not in the way the RFL has continued to progress with it. It has NEVER worked, so why not look for new ways?'"
Again, as on the other thread, you are misreading what I am writing. I'm not in favour of inventing teams and plonking them down willy nilly. I do, on the other hand think that the idea that a pro side can be built up from amateur beginnings is something that is often cited as an alternative to franchise/licensing expansion, and yet has never provided us with a new pro side. I also - again - did not say that anyoen who was lukewarm or negative about Crusaders opposed expansion full stop. I said "Opponents of expansion should be honest...". If you really think there are no opponents of expansion in our sport then you need to pull your head out of the sand, because there are. There are also those who pay lip-service to the idea that the game should expand, but then cover that with so many caveats about "what needs to be done first", that they're clearly not in the business of actually alowing it to happen in the lifetime of anyone who reads this mesageboard. And there's a range of other opinions. It is not me, who is grouping these into two monolithic camps of expansionists and flat-cappers. You need to read what I write, and not what you think I write, or there is no point to this.
For example, I did not say that Catalans and Celtic were identical cases. Yet you devote a paragraph to suggesting that I did. There are similarities. There are differences. But the point stands - both were effectively created solely to occupy a SL place which would be awarded to them on the basis of their potential. Neither was a case of organic growth of the sort usually advocated by those who oppose any such venture.
There are people on these boards who were absolutely implacable in their opposition to Catalans, and who said that as an artificial construct it would never work, and as France didn't have the players it would never work, and as they were being given a place in SL without winning promotion, then it was unfair/bogus/doomed to failure/precisely how expansion shouldn't happen, etc etc etc. Some of those same people are now pontificating that Les Cats was exactly the sort of model they had in mind because of history/playing resources/heritage blah blah blah, while saying the same thing about Crusaders as they did about Cats. I have no doubt that had Crusaders been an outstanding success then those people would have been telling us how they were a based on a thriving amateur Welsh conference, and "rugby" heritage, and how coming through the lower leagues helped prepare them etc etc.
By the way, I'm not sure that you can decry anything that anyone else says as ridiculous if you cite as evidence of successful bottom up "expansion" : Bradford, Castleford, Huddersfield, Hull FC, Hull KR, Leeds, Salford, Wakefield, Warrington and Wigan. I don't think you meant that, but then maybe that's how important it is to read carefully what people say.
By the way, if you're still in any doubt about whether Catalans were viewed in the same way as Crusaders by similar people, I've dredged up a thread for you :
forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0
That's only one which I found after about 5 minutes looking. The site doesn't seem to have much before then, and I didn't want to spend too much of my Saturday digging it all out, but anyone who was knocking around the boards in 2003-2006 can recall how Catalans would never work because of all the reasons which are currently being cited as to why Crusaders could never work.
Never assume that just because you are consistent, that other people cannot be hypocritical. | |
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| Quote: Grendel "
So that's it then. The insular parochial flatcappers have won! There is NO future for RL in Wales.
'" The RL loving public of South Wales could have easily defeated the flatcappers by turning up in sufficient numbers as paying customers on match days.You defeated yourselves,stop whingeing and get over it. | | |
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| Quote: Grendel "
So that's it then. The insular parochial flatcappers have won! There is NO future for RL in Wales.
With the exceptions of Dragons and Quins, the triumphant flatcappers can now comfortably walk to all away fixtures, without distrurbing the ferrets in their trousers, release their homing pigeons and walk home again before their clogs start to spark.'"
Nobody has "won". The only people to blame for this mess are the money men at Crusaders, the RFL and the people of Bridgend. Nothing to do with anyone else. | | |
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| Quote: GSF "The RL loving public of South Wales could have easily defeated the flatcappers by turning up in sufficient numbers as paying customers on match days.You defeated yourselves,stop whingeing and get over it.'"
He is spot on.
If the public had wanted a Welsh RL side they would have supported one.
They didn't....so they didnt.
End of argument. | | |
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| Quote: Roy Haggerty "Again, as on the other thread, you are misreading what I am writing. I'm not in favour of inventing teams and plonking them down willy nilly. I do, on the other hand think that the idea that a pro side can be built up from amateur beginnings is something that is often cited as an alternative to franchise/licensing expansion, and yet has never provided us with a new pro side. I also - again - did not say that anyoen who was lukewarm or negative about Crusaders opposed expansion full stop. I said "Opponents of expansion should be honest...". If you really think there are no opponents of expansion in our sport then you need to pull your head out of the sand, because there are. '"
When you say "opponents of expansion", who are you talking to though? Because the way you have structured your posts, it is appearing that anyone who opposes the idea of expansion through the way Celtic have is an opponent of expansion, hence why you said
If some of the things suggested had been done, they we might see them reap rewards. As it is, what has actually been done to promote clubs to move up the leagues from amateur to semi-pro to SL? There are huge boundaries between the amateur game and semi-pro game. These are huge issues, and whilst they are here, the bottom-up system will never get a good crack of the whip.
Meanwhile we have seen what dropping teams in from virtual no foundations has led to time and time again.
Quote: Roy Haggerty "For example, I did not say that Catalans and Celtic were identical cases. Yet you devote a paragraph to suggesting that I did. There are similarities. There are differences. But the point stands - both were effectively created solely to occupy a SL place which would be awarded to them on the basis of their potential. Neither was a case of organic growth of the sort usually advocated by those who oppose any such venture. '"
You grouped Celtic and Catalans together as if they were the same sort of case. "Saying we shouldn't expand through the likes of Catalans and Celtic", what if people agree with one but not the other? Catalans is a hugely different situation to Celtic. There is no point in evening mentioning one with the other. Apart from both being "franchises" so to speak (although in completely different settings) and being outside of the M62, I fail to see many other similarities.
Quote: Roy Haggerty "There are people on these boards who were absolutely implacable in their opposition to Catalans, and who said that as an artificial construct it would never work, and as France didn't have the players it would never work, and as they were being given a place in SL without winning promotion, then it was unfair/bogus/doomed to failure/precisely how expansion shouldn't happen, etc etc etc. Some of those same people are now pontificating that Les Cats was exactly the sort of model they had in mind because of history/playing resources/heritage blah blah blah, while saying the same thing about Crusaders as they did about Cats. '"
Who, exactly? Who has said one and now gone back on it? And since Celtic is a completely different scenario to Catalans, why do these matter? I'm not saying there won't be people that have gone back on it, but I'd think there are very few that are that pessimistic and stubborn that they'd go back on it in such a hypocritical way. And I haven't seen any on this thread for you to address.
Celtic are more in a Gateshead/PSG model than a Catalans model. This is why people are opposed to them. As these clubs were rushed and died, I don't blame many for being sceptical about Celtic.
Quote: Roy Haggerty "I have no doubt that had Crusaders been an outstanding success then those people would have been telling us how they were a based on a thriving amateur Welsh conference, and "rugby" heritage, and how coming through the lower leagues helped prepare them etc etc. '"
You are assuming things now.
Quote: Roy Haggerty "By the way, I'm not sure that you can decry anything that anyone else says as ridiculous if you cite as evidence of successful bottom up "expansion"
The word "expansion" was never used. The myth that a bottom-up method has never worked in RL is what I said. If bottom-up doesn't work, and top-down doesn't work, how have we got clubs in the SL? Clearly a system has to have worked somewhere for these clubs to be around for as long as they have been and for them to prosper.
Quote: Roy Haggerty "By the way, if you're still in any doubt about whether Catalans were viewed in the same way as Crusaders by similar people, I've dredged up a thread for you
And I never have. I am the first to tell everyone how dally is every time he logs on to a computer.
I am as sick as you appear to be about people decrying expansion. But decrying Celtic isn't decrying expansion. And I am more sick of people telling us how this that and the other must be persevered with despite it failing and failing in the past, and if it does fail it's the "flat capper, non expansion" people's faults (which HAS been said on this thread).
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| Quote: Barry_McKenzie "He is spot on.
If the public had wanted a Welsh RL side they would have supported one.
They didn't....so they didnt.
End of argument.'"
Not really the end of the argument though, is it?
Why is it failing? Why didn't they support it? What would have been better? Who is to blame? | | |
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| Quote: Wellsy13 "Not really the end of the argument though, is it?
Why is it failing? Why didn't they support it? What would have been better? Who is to blame?'"
It failed for a variety of reasons, but in my opinion the main ones are:
1. South Wales is a Rugby Union area. Its like setting up a new RU Club somewhere around Hull and then wondering why no one supports it. The majority of people in South Wales don't give a fat rats about league. Hence hardly anyone turned up to support the club.
2. Same as point 1. | | |
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| Quote: Wellsy13 "Not really the end of the argument though, is it?
Why is it failing? Why didn't they support it? What would have been better? Who is to blame?'"
Careful wellsy don't try and get Bazza to enter reasoned argument, he's just not capable | | | |
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RLFANS Match Centre 
| Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1 | | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
| Wigan |
29 |
768 |
338 |
430 |
48 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
| Hull KR |
29 |
731 |
344 |
387 |
44 |
| Warrington |
29 |
769 |
351 |
418 |
42 |
| Leigh |
29 |
580 |
442 |
138 |
33 |
| Salford |
28 |
556 |
561 |
-5 |
32 |
| St.Helens |
28 |
618 |
411 |
207 |
30 |
| |
| Catalans |
27 |
475 |
427 |
48 |
30 |
| Leeds |
27 |
530 |
488 |
42 |
28 |
| Huddersfield |
27 |
468 |
658 |
-190 |
20 |
| Castleford |
27 |
425 |
735 |
-310 |
15 |
| Hull FC |
27 |
328 |
894 |
-566 |
6 |
| LondonB |
27 |
317 |
916 |
-599 |
6 |
| Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1 | | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
| Wakefield |
27 |
1032 |
275 |
757 |
52 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
| Toulouse |
26 |
765 |
388 |
377 |
37 |
| Bradford |
28 |
723 |
420 |
303 |
36 |
| York |
29 |
695 |
501 |
194 |
32 |
| Widnes |
27 |
561 |
502 |
59 |
29 |
| Featherstone |
27 |
634 |
525 |
109 |
28 |
| |
| Sheffield |
26 |
626 |
526 |
100 |
28 |
| Doncaster |
26 |
498 |
619 |
-121 |
25 |
| Halifax |
26 |
509 |
650 |
-141 |
22 |
| Batley |
26 |
422 |
591 |
-169 |
22 |
| Swinton |
28 |
484 |
676 |
-192 |
20 |
| Barrow |
25 |
442 |
720 |
-278 |
19 |
| Whitehaven |
25 |
437 |
826 |
-389 |
18 |
| Dewsbury |
27 |
348 |
879 |
-531 |
4 |
| Hunslet |
1 |
6 |
10 |
-4 |
0 |
|
