I am almost certain someone said this in 1896. Except they were probably talking about such new fangled places as Brighouse. We haven't done alot better since, so 'appen they were right. Keep RL local!

So what explains: Bowls, Table Tennis, Squash, Badminton, Netball, for instance, being played everywhere? did they have loads of money? I bet they have generated far far less than RL but are pretty widely spread out.

Perhaps they were magicians? Or all millionaires?

Not even sure what you are saying mate? You agreeing or disagreeing here?

Never said they were going to take over the world, only that they exist and that's [iexactly[/i the point, how much is a rugby ball and 13 volunteers?

I think on that basis RL is a world wide sport then.

Can't be, because when it comes to RL, this level is called a 'joke' or a 'farce' or 'just 13 blokes running round a pitch'.

Some of that, I agree with. It's unbelievable that after the disaster of the PSG visa/registration cock-up, the RFL have allowed it to happen in another attempted expansion club. It's also gutting that they've managed to once again be taken in by a financial backer who talks long-term but acts short-term. But then, when you're as desperate for any sort of wealthy backers as our sport is, I guess you become wilfully blind.

What I don't agree with is the idea, which has tremendous staying power on these forums, that somehow Celtic are occupying a seat previously labelled "Widnes", or Catalans are occupying a similar chair labelled "Leigh" (which was argued by many opponents of Catalans at the time). They're not. There were 14 places up for grabs, some of them were dead certs, and there was a dogfight for the last 3 or 4. Crusaders no more replaced Widnes in the licensing application than Wakefield or Salford did. Yet Wakefield and Salford attract no fraction of the vitriol which pours onto the Welsh. I also think that it's no small leap of faith for anyone who is currently saying that they knew Celtic wouldn't be viable to suggest that there are viable certainties waiting in the wings up north. After all, when the license decisions were taken, Widnes were a financial basket case, and that's not the only time they have been. Doncaster also put in a bid, and they weren't so much building on sand as on thin air. The decision to award a license to Celtic was no more barking than it would have been to award one to Widnes, or Salford, for that matter. It may have been a risk, but it didn't at the time seem like much more of a risk than a number of other options, so let's not get carried away suggesting that there were rock solid alternatives - there weren't, and still aren't, although I hope Widnes do now have the solidity they've lacked since the late eighties, and Salford's stadium does eventually get built.




Trolls ?

You are the person who on this (and other unmentioned message boards) is reknowned for being a Cassandra of biblical proportions with your endless whining about how grim a failure everything is, are repeatedly slapped down by people who actual know something about RL outside the M62, and you call [ime [/ia troll ?

Don't make me point out again, as I have done repeatedly in other places, that what I have forgotten about RL in the south east, both professional and amateur, is far more than you will ever know with your pretence that because your dad used to take you to watch Coventry you are the fountain of knowledge on all things outside the M62.

I know exactly what state London was in 1995, because I was playing in an amateur club and going to the pro club as a fan. Both the amateur league and the pro club were dying on their s. What happened in 1995 when London were parachuted into SL, top-down, which they were by Maurice Lindsey, without winning promotion and without bidding for a license, was the saving of RL in London at all levels. Since that time, despite the difficulties of the Broncos/Quins, the picture has improved beyond all recognition, and I doubt there'd be anyone involved in running the game down here who thinks that the improvement in London RL at all levels would have happened had London Broncos not been created and placed in SL. London are only in SL because they were put there to give the game a presence in the national capital, just as Crusaders were created to give the game presence in Wales, and Catalans in France. To say that the current Quins are some sort of organic growth from what was created in Fulham in 1980 is utter cock, and merely demonstrates the innacurate drivel you regularly spew from your smelly bedroom of gloom.

And while I'm at it, how dare you misrepresent my views, you snivelling little toerag ? I in no way want the semi-pro leagues "shut down", although I do believe the should operate prudently at a level they can afford. I do think NL3 is not the best model for the amateur game, but that makes me one of hundreds involved in the amateur sport who think likewise. Despite that, I'm also on record as saying that as long as the clubs in NL3 want to play there then that's up to them, because ultimately as amateurs not taking the game's shilling they're entitled to make their own path. If you're so bitter about being continually shown up as a know-nothing no-mark on these and other boards, that you have to try and lie to discredit those who regularly show you up for the bird you are, then go find something else to do. Like get your hand out of your trousers and find a sport you can follow whose other fans don't move away when you sit in the stands near them.

Now there's a discussion going on here between those who actually know things, rather than just make them up like yourself. So run along and go take some ecstasy to cheer up, or have sex if you're old enough, and if the lasses haven't all run away from your miserable whinging. But don't try and lie about what I believe again or you'll make me really cross, and then I may just have to tell your mum you're irritating the grown-ups and she'll take your pocket money supply away.

Great, great post Roy

I take your point and perhaps I should have described the ommitted club as "more immediately viable" rather than "viable.

However, if for some reason Celtic withdrew their bid do you suppose that no other team would have had that place?

Geographical expansion, if it is so vital to the sport should not be included in the bidding process. The RFL should map out their strategy for expansion and explain it to the clubs and the fans, justifying why it is so important, how it will benefit the game, how much will be invested and so on.

Why can the RFL not market this idea in carefully selected regions, where expansion is desireable and build a database of interested parties. Perhaps there are organisations with facilities that they would like additional useage from, perhaps there are investors that the RFL could match up with these organisations to see if we can get a meeting of minds so that we are working to a plan which everyone can understand and support.

As a candidate for expansion, which fits into the plan, becomes apparent then that club should be given all the support it needs, over a sustained period of time to make it work. Building the infrastructure and competence to run a full time RL club in SL (adopting best practice from the existing clubs and the RFL), so that we don't get such things as players deported and teams playing 120 miles away from the area where all the effort has gone into.

I would like to see expansion at a slower geographical rate, as explained before. I think that (depending what happens to Celtic) we should be targeting the midlands and joining the dots between Yorkshire and London.

This would maximise travelling supporters (helping the finances of the new club(s)), give an opportunity of something approaching a derby match for the new club and for the same reasons provide Quins with some "local" games. Perhaps that might create a bit more interest darn sarf too.

The past is the past and irrelevent. If hypothetically speaking it takes 20 years of a Welsh domestic league for a Welsh SL team to be ready (I know other variables have an effect) then the 108 years they didn't have one is irrelevent. Likewise if it teakes 9 years of increases juniors from having one French SL to support another one then the 111 years beforehand are irrelevent. The game has done lots of wrong in the past but that doesn't mean we need to recklessly overcompensate now. Slowly is better

We agree


The only team there that would be a worse idea than Crusaders is Doncaster. Crusaders were always going to fail and Widnes while you can never prove things 100% were far more likely to. The only debate is whether a 12 team SL would be better and I am uncertain. I agree the only reason people opposed Catalans is from their clubs point of view or the way it was carried out, though Crusaders this wasn't the case as they were terrible. I have always been very pro-Catalans, though what were your views on Crusaders before they came in (legitimate question) as most of the aggressive expansionists were rabidly pro them and have pretended they never were


Actually this is not entirely fair as while some of your views on the pro game are similar to those of the trolls and very aggressively put like one, you aren't the same as you have contributed to developing the game at an amateur level a lot, so for that you aren't in the same bracket as SmokeyTA who cares nothing for the game below SL, you just happen to share his views on the pro game


A lot of it was money from SL and there was more going round and yes it wouldn't have happened organically (though they had been close to promotion to the 1st division for a couple of years so they would have likely gone up soon anyway if they got the backing they got later). They weren't necessarily completely ready but they were far more ready than Crusaders


Championship 1 needs to look at where it is I agree, but a franchised Championship could stay at this level (or the slightly lower one it is at next yeat due to the economic climate at least). yiu have very often said you see the Championship as worthless and doing nothing for the game, not the same as saying it should be shut down granted, but pretty aggressive views all the same. RLCN I would support removing if there were something better to replace it with, but seems there is no viable alternative for some of the clubs (the RLCP South has expanded too fast and is in a mess so a RLCN South is out of the question). I do think it was too much too soon at the time, but now while it needs looking at I'm not sure what they can do to improve it, aside from exchange the odd clubs now and again. I'd like to see the old semi-regional set up back again but not sure where they'd get the teams from. I guess your views have softened to it over time, though I guess so have mine as I realised separate RLCN North and South aren't a viable alternative (though if they found the better clubs somewhere else to play I wouldn't object to the rest being spread in the RLCP divisions


I suggest you read the AUP, it is rants like this that make you look like one of the trolls (in fact very similar to Smokey TA only much more aggressive)

For the record of the rest of the site, me and Roy Haggerty had an argument on either this forum or another one years ago about whether the RLC should aim to lengthen the season so as not to rely on RU players (which I agreed with) or whether it didn't matter (which he said) and somehow he still has a grudge against me. It doesn't matter if we agree on more than we disagree it will always be an argument because we don't get on, so no point continuing it really