Indeed. The way the boroughs are designed (i.e. don't exactly fit the town) makes things very difficult.

Wigan metropolitan borough is 328,662.
Wigan's population is 103,608. The borough also includes Leigh, Ashton-in-Makerfield and other small towns.

Warrington borough is 210,014.
Warrington's population is 165,456. The town pretty much fits the borough (officially a 'unitary authority').

So which is actually the bigger town that should have the bigger attendances?

The RFL is little more than Rimmer and a few staff.

I'd guess there is well over a Million people 30 minutes away from Wakefield Trinity in Barnsley, Rotherham and Sheffield??

Good luck to anyone trying to boost Trinity's crowds from that angle.

What Trinity need is a modern ground to boost local support. The modernisation of RL grounds was certainly the catalyst for improved attendances and higher income pro rata..

I dunno about this. In 2008 Leeds, Wigan Hull and Saints were the best supported clubs averaging 13,000 fans a game

The average a game for these four still dominant clubs eleven years later is 11,000.....

This was their average in the early 2000's

So the main drop off seems to be by new fans who were attracted to these big clubs in their new/modern/improved stadia but have lost interest despite these clubs continued success......

It's almost as if in the era of bigger and better stadiums more people were willing to go to watch the top clubs in their improved stadia, but somehow these additional fans have dropped off in recent years. Maybe ATEOTD they didn't care greatly for Rugby league, maybe it was some sort of era when it was fashionable to watch RL?

2003 we averaged 8,200 a game in Superleague
2019 we averages 8,200 a game in Superleague

If you think the sport is "dead" because of the current attendances, then it's no more dead than it was nearly 20 years ago. My guess is that the game became fashionable as Superleague progressed and stadia improved, but most of the "new fans" following the "glamour" clubs have over time peeled away........

It does strike me as strange that Wakefield, a club with an impresssive history, don't get bigger crowds.

Like Warrington, there is no other significant local sports team, although I'm sure Leeds United have quite a few fans in Wakefield just as Liverpool and Man United have a lot in Warrington.

It is true that the new stadiums at Hull, Wigan and Warrington provided a boost in the early 00s, but its important to note that in the late 00s they decided to play 4 Derby games a season and that gave a short term boost to crowds, for HullFC no other fixture comes close to the Derby as a crowd puller, it was also of course a year of a big financial crash (season tickets will have been bought in 2007)

In my view the constant format changes have pushed away casual fans. Over the years I've had to explain to people at work that the game tonight wasn't a playoff it was 'super8' game and it didn't matter because Hull were too far away to make the playoffs proper...response to that was blank looks. We've also had 'Clubcall' with teams picking their playoff opponent, a different playoff format almost every year, franchising and promotion and relaxation. People who were only half interested in the first place get switched off.

In Wakefield's case the facilities are a big turn off, its not even like other old grounds where the atmosphere is great on the old terraces so you put up with it, you get Wet and the sound leaks out and the steps are shallow so the view is poor. The club have also stuttered along facing financial disaster for years, until the latest owners have steadied the ship and to their credit they have performed well given the budget.

4 derby games a season reduces the overall average, frankly it's insane to do that, it does damage to your support and the interest in that fierce rivalry because it becomes more mundane/everyday due to the regularity of it.
This is why IMHO the SL structure is flawed and always has been, it's had the knock on effect of damaging interest in the CC as well due to where the CC was placed in the calender and the rounds being spread out stupidly/not enough time for certain fixtures.
Home and away fixtures only, if you want to have a top xx play off fine but the messing about with unbalanced fixtures is garbage.

I'm more attracted as would families IMO because of the modern facilities, try attracting a wider range of fans away from the die hards to the Boulevard as it was and we'd see signifcantly fewer fans on average. I loved it BITD but sitting with a decent view of the pitch, not getting soaked when it rains, having decent toilets and not having to run the gauntlet (you know what I mean) is massively more appealing to me.

I agree with this. It can be difficult to get neutrals to sustain interest.

Also, I think Europeans like league championships, rather than a transplanted American/Aussie system of playoffs.

Europeans (I say that because it's not only a British thing) like the inherent fairness of a league system - you win the most games, you're the rightful champions at the end of the season.

I know the Grand Final is a money spinner, but the system of League + Challenge Cup + Regal Trophy fits better with people's understanding of how sport works here. It's the same as football basically - a league, a knockout cup, and another minor cup (like the Carabao or whatever it's called now).

They sold out a game against Castleford that was a play off to see who was relegated. They had 11,000 there and not many Castleford fans at all. They are however a habitual losing club in a terrible stadium.

I suppose if they had Paul Caddick as a chairman they'd sell out a redeveloped Belle Vue ground every game......

They are also up against Leeds United. Wakey to Elland Road is an easy journey......

I'm sure you are right and this is another factor in terms of crowds. We can't however rely on crowds at stadiums to support the professional game.

I think we all know if Superleague didn't have a TV deal there would be no Superleague and the game's profile would shrink badly as would crowds who would not want part time RL shorn of the big players. I remember the superleague season when Leeds played Bradford...

67,000 in the cup final
19,000 in the Headingley derby
21,000 in the Odsal derby
19,000 at odsal in the third league game
15,000 in the play off game at odsal

In a way I didn't like this in principle, but in practice these were great games, they drew big audiences to the games, and no doubt someone wanting to watch so RL on SKY would probably have welcomed Leeds and Bradford for the fifth time rather than Huddersfield-Sheffield against Wakefield for the first time that season.....

We are what we are thanks to TV, and the BBC must have been delighted at the Bradford.v.Leeds game in the cup recently.

See above.

It's insane that the game doesn't work hard enough to get Bradford back in Superleague, and the fans don't cut them any slack.

I can appreciate the purists idea of "fair play" and "this is sport". However I don't think it really is just a sport. It's a business that has to find the best way to survive and prosper.

As a "sport" shorn of the SKY deal and BBC money I honestly think our audience would shrink badly, and that top Rugby kids would be looking to play Union, who themselves would probably look to create another Sale RUFC in west Yorkshire.....Recreating Leeds RUFC.....

For me it's got nothing to do with the stadium I watch the game not checking out the facilities, I suppose if you stunted in growth it is difficult to watch from Belle Vue but try watching a team that you know will never reach a super league or even get the opportunity to grace Wembley all because we're not rich enough to afford the better players that the top clubs can get,
you wonder why some fans leave the game when they see clubs bend the rules to clamber up the league leaving you light years behind.
Then add the the lopsided refing that makes a mockery of the game whether it's televised or not,
then the bias to the richer clubs being on sky the most,
then you get the snobbery of fans that used to play out of holes but have forgotten about their past and get helping hand by their council's or latch on to football clubs but bleat on about ours

And you wonder why fans of the game are getting peed of with the game

That's very hypocritical of you, how's that song go "old faithful in any kind of weather"

Spot on there old boy, some people have short memories on here.

That's a mighty rant....I'm sure you and me both would, and have, and still would watch games stood on a pit heap (didn't Post office road have an unterraced banking of pit debris behind the sticks at one end?)**** But if we want the crowds we need to have the facilities - for the ladies if the loo's are a tip that's enough for them to refuse to go. ANYWAY.....

We have to put up with Leeds, Wire, Wigan and Saints playing for all the trophies decade after decade, but one thing I think we may forget is that wasn't there a time when they received "dispensation" because they moaned they could afford to buy big talents from Australia that would "grace the game" and the cap blocked this?

So this is the "better players" thing?

That Leeds or Wigan can stick another couple of hundred thousand on their "cap" and buy top Aussies may also mean that when top kids in Wakefield are ready to join an academy, they don't join Wakefield's but go to Leeds and yes Wigan?

I'd agree the cards are stacked against Wakefield.....Probably both ways......

Odsal's banking at the far end was a mix of rubbish and cinders from 100 years of coal fires in the city, I can remember pulling out empty BYB beer bottles out of that tip....