This.

The "traditional RL fan" isn't going to keep this sport going as a professional entity. No amount of Eddie Hearn or demanding that the RFL "do something" will ever change that.

This doesn't have to be an issue of expansion of we don't want it to be, but the inaction of the clubs to grow, to promote themselves and to engage new audiences is what is necessitating this expansion drive. If Salford were successful in engaging Yuppies in Manchester and if Widnes were successful in reaching those affluent audiences in Cheshire, the expansion debate would be a very different one.

You can cling to intangible measures such as "atmosphere" as much as you like, but that atmosphere is going to decline anyway for as long as we keep listing to our dying breed of supporters who resist anything that we try and do to find the next generation of fans to replace them.

We cannot afford to risk the magnificent magical atmosphere that can be experienced at the AJ Bell Stadium or Belle Vue Wakefield, by bringing in either Toulouse or Toronto, there is far too much to lose and we will never get it back. Apparently.

For me, I’d love to see RL expanded as much as possible. Living in the Midlands, I want to pick up a newspaper and see it on the back page, walk into a pub and see it on the screens, and walk into the office on a Monday and have people talking about the weekends games.

But, whenever people talk about expansion, it’s always seems to be at the expense of the more traditional clubs, or that Super League is the be all and end all, yet it really shouldn’t be. It’s the grassroots structure of the game that needs supporting and expanding.

We need a two pronged attack of actively establishing teams in non heartland areas, but we also need a stronger Championship and League 1.

You look at football and you have at least 15-20 teams outside of the Premier League capable of being in there. The Championship is the fourth highest attended league in Europe, with the money to boot. Outside Super League? Two, three, four clubs at a push, and half of them would be around the bottom not adding much to the competition.

I thought we were going the right way with adding teams like Coventry, Oxford and Hemel to League One and giving that route to success, whilst allowing them to build at their own pace. But we need to close that gap between Super League and the Championship so that it’s not like dropping off a cliff edge, and that year in year we can have a healthy competition with promotion/relegation to keep it fresh.

If you have that sustainable route, then given time you’ll see ambitious and well run clubs rise to the top, whatever part of the country (or world) they are in.

Firstly though, we really need to get the RFL run in a more commercially astute manner, particularly regarding marketing and contacts, but if we can get that right, then we’ve got a game that has all the potential to go from strength to strength. Look at the rise in popularity of NFL over the last few years, it’s not all about football. If we can get the right league structure in place, alongside pushing the boundaries of the game into new areas, then it’ll be up to the ‘traditional’ clubs themselves as to whether they want to sink or swim. It should never be a closed shop where mediocrity is allowed to flourish.

I also agree with a post earlier, that the richer clubs need to be allowed to spend. Intoduce something like FFP in football to protect clubs from themselves rather than a cap that puts everyone to the lowest possible denominator. That in itself will force clubs to improve themselves off the field if they want to compete.

You do love to live in the past, do you not ? Wakefield have every chance of finishing in 5th place this season, same chance as last season. Trinity, a founder member of the Northern Union, have never been relegated by their performance on the field.

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Yes they have

Name me a ground that has "magnificent magical atmosphere". I shall then visit said ground and compare it with Belle Vue, Even then, to mention the AJ Bell and Belle Vue in the same context is rather silly.

Lamport Stadium

The primary purpose of any professional sport is to make money. Of course it's in the sport's best interests to please fans and grow the fan base, because fans watch on tv (generating profit from tv deals) and buy merchandise, beer, and tickets. In terms of English RL, the fan base is already displacing itself by aging and dying off. If RL is to continue as a successful professional sport, it needs to support expansion AND find ways to support the game in the north of England. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

It's been said many times that RL needs to market to new, younger crowds and sell the game as entertainment much better than it appears to be doing currently. The Challenge Cup win by Catalans can be used as a huge boost to showcase this exciting game to new fans in England as well as France (and grow new sponsorships and revenue). Or it can be used to continue bemoaning the fate of heartland clubs.

Perhaps Wakefield and Castleford should follow the example set by their neighbours Ossett and merge. They could then build a new stadium between the two of them. They could even sell the extra Super League place to the New York bidding team, or an ambitious French Elite 1 club to go towards the stadium. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45171971

Perhaps Wakefield and Castleford should follow the example set by their neighbours Ossett and merge. They could then build a new stadium between the two of them. They could even sell the extra Super League place to the New York bidding team, or an ambitious French Elite 1 club to go towards the stadium. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45171971

Change the record pal.

Have you been to Toulouse ?

They are a decent Championship club, playing a decent brand of RL in a tiny ground in front of 2000 fans and yet you think they should replace one of the sides that you mention.
How many schools and local RL clubs are there playing RL in the Toulouse area ??

The key is having as many kids playing the game as possible and whilst I'd be very happy to see Toulouse in the top flight, they aint going to save the sport.
Toronto for all their success in generating new supporters in a new area of the world are also not going to save the game.

IF the sport was serious about expanding, we should have worked harder to save Sheffield, instead of "forcing" their merger with Huddersfield and be working harder with the likes of Newcastle.

Certainly, investment in the UK would bring a greater return in the long run, rather than clubs on the wrong side of the Atlantic.

So your saying that increased attendances are a must

The difference between the pioneering changes of the past and the sort of expansion being touted here, is that the fan base was never at risk.

Removing line-outs and 2 players, the various league structures, the move to summer, Super League, play-offs - none of this affected the fact that families who had watched their club for generations kept that tradition and would still go to watch their team, rain, wind or shine.

These areas have junior and open age amateur teams, many of the schools play RL, it's in the local press almost every day, there are local and historical rivalries. Many of the players are locals. There is loyalty, tradition and heritage. The club is part of the community. Catalans actually have that longstanding heritage and tradition having been formed via the merger of XIII Catalan and St Esteve XIII, teams formed in 1934 and 1965 respectively. They aren't an 'expansion' team in the manner of Toronto.

However, as we've repeatedly seen, engaging locals enough to go to games in brand new expansion areas is massively difficult. They will have their own interests - football, RU, cricket, cycling, fishing, gaming, etc. Whatever support base you do manage to create is enormously fickle. There may be a small hardcore but the majority will drift in & out, and if the club fails on the pitch they will lose interest and eventually the whole thing collapses. All of this has been demonstrated repeatedly. So build slowly, build success off and on the field, build a loyal following and we might see different results.

Let's say Widnes is thrown out for Toronto. They survive but lose fans and interest. 2 years later Wakefield is dropped for Toulouse and go bust after 18 months. Straight away the decreasing pool of RL fans and engagement in the UK is suddenly smaller, and we've killed off generations of loyalty and tradition. RL in the UK is weaker. How on earth is this a positive development?

2 years later Toronto's owner pulls the plug. Toulouse struggle to win and drop out of SL...and the the pool of traditional RL in the UK they replaced has already been lost. We are all significantly weaker for the irrational drive for expansion at any cost.

RL in the UK simply cannot afford to take those gambles. I love what's going on in Toronto and a North American league would be fantastic, but we cannot weaken the game in the UK under any circumstances.

That's a new one. We're all dying off.

You're absolutely correct. RL in the north needs to be strengthened, and expansion sides need support. But it has to be a slow burn and not at the expense of destroying existing RL support and tradition - we are simply not big or strong enough for that. I'm also strongly of the view any team entering SL should do so on merit, not location.

The Catalans win could indeed be a great boost - let's see how effectively it's marketed.

They'd be idiots not to get another game in Barcelona ASAP.