No it doesn't, the only thing that it highlights is that there is not enough interest in either of these cities

Hence there being 9 professional RL clubs in those areas.

So RL has succeeded in Manchester and Liverpool , just that no club has ever taken their name , bit like London football

If all london football clubs were beset by problems brought on by their parochial inability to expand outside of their own small areas, yes.

I work in a big office in Stockport twhich is JUST outside Manchester: over 300 work here and all know of my RL love. Two (yes, two) other occasionally attend matches. Most could not name any RL teams apart from Wigan. Yet the constant conversation is of soccer.
The train from Rochdale to Manchester is similar: endless chat about the football game on last night and odd snide comments about the egg-chaser (me).

Most common question: what's the difference between Union and League.

Simply, at the moment, the interest is not here.

All this historical stuff and talks of "soccer cities" is very interesting an' all, but the fact is simple: nobody with a desire to run a RL club there rich enough to start one exists. It would fly, if you threw enough money at it, but at present there's no-one that will.

If the Toronto guy was based in Liverpool, for example, and not Toronto, he is the sort of guy (and his backers) who could do it. You just need the desire, vision, balls and resources.

Areas v cities make your mind up I thought your point was aimed at the two cities called Manchester and Liverpool? As far as I understand it none of these 9 teams are located in these cities

This is the parochialism I was talking about.

I wasn't saying that a parochial approach doesn't hamper development RL in the two cities, by definition it must. However, I was suggesting that the greater obstacle was a lack of interest in these two cities.

In other words, there's nothing in it for these poor, parochial souls to unburden themselves of their yokes and expand into these cities, although it depends on what you mean by expanding...?

Man Utd aren't in Manchester. But they don't hesitate to sell themselves in Manchester. They don't look at Trafford as their fiefdom. They will go in to Salford, Bolton, Wigan, Stockport, Cheshire, Bury (and much much further)

RL clubs are locked in to a view that Salford sell in Salford and that certain parts of Wigan is for Wigan and certain parts are for Leigh yet there are 200k+ people in Bolton next door where we aren't making in roads, there are people in Stockport and Bury and Trafford and Manchester where we don't make in roads. There are 2.5 million people in greater Manchester and we have clubs fighting for the same couple of thousand fans.

I'm not saying it's just those areas, there are 2.2m people in west Yorkshire and we have Wakefield and Cas fighting over the same 100k market. On other threads we have people arguing over whether Rothwell and Wetherby are 'really Leeds' and whether they're fighting with cas and Wakefield for the fans in garforth. There are people who complain that Leeds advertise in beeston or holbeck because South of the river is hunslet territory.

I agree that clubs should expand their marketing territory, or rather not be restricted by it, but, there will be limited value to it as there isn't the interest, or are pointing the finger at say Saints and Widnes for a lack of RL interest in Liverpool? Maybe they should relocate to the city test that interest, take a chance on alienating their core business for a 'golden shot' at the big time? It's about budget, time and effort for tangible rewards and I don't think that the rewards are there, or the budget.

Yes, Manchester United a team that was based in Manchester and moved to Trafford....admittedly a successful model, but, not really fair comparative, given that they attract an average attendance equivalent to the whole of SL. In a significantly more high profile sport, they aren't even a fair comparison to the vast majority of worldwide football clubs. In reality, I don't think that Manchester United market themselves with an emphasis on the Manchester, they've gone beyond that and probably why they are a success in Trafford and far flung places like China

Interesting post this.

I'm from Bolton and from a non-playing background, from a family that also never played or followed any RL team (no rugby of any code was played competitively in Bolton schools during my time due to an accident in a scrum that left a boy with a very bad neck injury).

My point of contact with the sport was 1980's televised Challenge Cup finals and the era just before Wigan's dominance of them. We also had a school visit from Des Drummond while he was at Leigh which was the only sporting professional of any kind to visit our schools.

Unfortunately it didn't turn me overnight into a fully fledged Leigh fan, but I've maintained an interest in them ever since and have seen them play a dozen or so times. I could never get behind Salford who I equate to being not only a Manchester team (there's a lot of civic rivalry between proud Boltonians and Mancunians), but specifically a Manchester United associated team.

There are a lot of Wigan fans in north Bolton and thanks to one I got an introduction to going to St Helens-Wigan derby matches at Central Park in the early 90's where to their dismay I nailed my colours to St Helens mast as I couldn't stand Wigan's dominance of the sport.

As an adult and someone from a non-heartland the things I love about RL are the fact that it's a summer sport, the tickets are easy to get hold of compared to soccer and following your team home and away (with the notable exception of one or two teams) is easily done again compared to soccer and the media coverage hasn't reached saturation point like soccer.

My main criticisms are the idea that liking RL is somehow incompatible with liking other sports, the incessant gimmickry, changes by the governing body to competition structures, the idea that traditional clubs should be allowed to wither on the vine - why throw away so much history?

I've lived in Manchester most of my life and rarely do United 'sell themselves' around here, except a few campaigns in the MEN and the Tevez billboard. They don't generally need to (unless the occasional European game is selling short). Their sponsors, 'partners' and the media will do it for them.

I have, however, seen Salford marketing themselves far and wide, especially since Koukash took the helm. It's certainly not true to say they sell only in Salford. Far from it - they've targeted a wide catchment and are active on the radio, in local press and via other means including social media and mailshots.

For all practical purposes, 'Manchester' is the area within and bordering the M60 (sorry, Salford); the defined borders mean very little in reality. Except for a small hardcore in the Salford and Swinton area there is almost no interest in the game. A scattered passing interest, perhaps, but not much. Football areas are football areas and you haven't a cat in hell's chance of breaking in. But then there are other demographics people forget. A huge Jewish community in North Manchester. Enormous Asian (and other immigrant) communities in more areas than I can probably name. The large Afro-Caribbean community centred around Moss Side. A massive student population, many hailing from non-RL areas and many of whom remain in Manchester to live & work after university. Then there are areas such as Wythenshawe...though the less said about those the better. So there you have huge swathes of the population with - again, for all practical purposes - absolutely no interest in or indeed awareness of the game. The 'traditional' RL audience in Manchester is limited, so new inroads need to be found.

It has to start in the schools but that's a challenge in itself. A friend of mine coaches sport at a college nearby. He's a football man but also loves RL and when the Head of Sport decided the college would coach and play RU, it was simply due to funding and support from the RFU, who send development officers into colleges to help out. Some of the Sport England funding would do well bringing back the RFL development officers of a few years ago who were doing similar and making some strong inroads, including converting the school the Bury Broncos had moved to. Invest, invest and invest in get kids playing throughout their school lives and you have players and fans at the ready. Then you can start to think about cracking big cities who frankly don't care about RL.