Not really when one party is only guilty of giving out an award and the other party is bordering on libel.



Whereas I suppose you don't agree with people who have the same view as you???



I like to know where I said he didn't mean it.......oh wait I didn't, now who is claiming to know what others are thinking?
I never claimed to know what he was thinking, I showed he has a history of praising others when the spotlight is turned on him.

The point I was making, which clearly went straight over your head, is that when you say ''even Sinfield doesn't think he should have won it'', the evidence you use (of him praising Tomkins) needs to be taken into context with how Sinfield has always responded to personal praise.
Another point to consider is that his 'would-be-vote' of Tomkins came after the news of the Aussies complaining about the Sinfield pick and downplaying SL, perhaps turning around and picking an Aussie as his choice didn't seem too appealing after that.
Yet another point? Tomkins 'would have' been his pick, now he may have only meant from the other 5 on the shortlist. If he could choose from anybody in world RL then it's a possibility he might of picked differently. Maybe, maybe not, we can't be sure, i'll leave others on here to pass off theories and suggestions as facts.

As the last quote shows he also said the Golden Boot ''represent the whole team'' so you could say he thinks each of his Leeds teammates are just as deserving going by what he said.

Isn't being the captain and leader of a team that has won 6 GF, 3 WCC, 2 LLS in the last 9 years and winning 2 Harry Sunderland awards making enough 'happen' for you?
If deciding the fate of the Super League trophy with back-to-back MOM performances against the two teams who finished 1st and 2nd isn't making things 'happen' then I don't know what is.........oh wait, I forgot, he doesn't have a lightening turn of pace.

You're not very clever, are you? Or you're the one being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, I've repeatedly said I don't think he's the best player in the world, but I've also said he deserves the award (or 'an' award) as acknowledgement of his achievements, just not for being "international player of the year" (TotalRL's own definition) for 2012. But that's not good enough for you? I HAVE to call him the best in the world before you're happy?!! Wow.

The fact that Martyn Sadler had to justify the award speaks volumes. And he could only justify it by saying Sinfield is a "supreme captain", and by quoting kicking statistics. And then by bigging up the grand final. Even Sadler couldn't bring himself to say 'best player in the world'.
[i"Kevin can't move as quickly as Ben Barba, or with the elusiveness of Sam Tomkins, while Cameron Smith's ability close to the ruck is surely second to none. But Sinfield is a supreme captain, and only Cameron Smith can rival his leadership, while Sinfield's goal-kicking success rate in 2012 was 82.84%, compared to 69.64% for Smith."[/i

As someone on another forum put it:
Leeds Player of the year - Ryan Hall
SL Dream Team 6 and 13 - Finch and O'Loughlin
Man of Steel - not shortlisted
World XIII 6 and 13 - Thurston and Gallen
Golden Boot (international player of the year) - yep! Kevin Sinfield!




No, the league table tells me they were pretty average.

Deary me Mr Sadler is that the best you can do. I read an LP where either yourself or somebody of similar standing was bigging up a Leeds fan (not acknowledged in the publication) Jim Slade explaining why Kevin Sinfield was the rightful GB winner. 99% of people supporting Kevin Sinfield as GB winner seem to be Leeds fans too. How odd or maybe not.

I have repeatedly stated that Kevin Sinfield is a consumate professional and a role model for any young person to aspire to. However, like numerous peiople I felt the assumption Kevin Sinfield was the best player in the world in 2012 beggared belief.

First and foremost to play in SL whether it be for Leeds, Wigan whomever. For a British player to be able to win the GB they would have to play in the NRL or British RL surpass Australasia as the dominant RL force in the world. You cannot be the best in the world if you play in a secong tier competition. I will not pretend British RL is wonderful because I do not have to. It is your job whether you believe it or not. I do not have a high opinion of modern media, particularly RL. Harry Edgar or Martyn Sadler I know which I rate higher.

I actually think SL has overall gone backwards. We were closer to Australasia pre SL and if you compare say the talent and ability of the top 5 SL squads year on year it was stronger in the past. Personally, I think the SKY cash cow was wasted for short term aims rather than looking long term. Give it is my opinion that SL is not progressing then the fact Leeds are winning GFs through experience and continuity in key positions, playing conservatively and waiting for the opposition to commit suicide is not spectacular nor amazing. It is a sad indicement of SL in 2012.

Worse despite Leeds fans arguing that Kevin turns loaves and fish into miracles he has somehow been unable to perform for much of the regular season, not cut it at Wembley as he did not previously. Leeds fans like every man are hypocritical. Such short memories, 'get rid of Brian Mac he is an idiot' 'our team are useless and ageing' has followed after runs of defeats or a bad defeat. Sports fans are fickle.

Ultimately though the Origin and NRL is true elite sport. Hence, I would not vote for any GB winner playing in SL and not competing against Australia / NZ in any given year. The most spectacular feat in present day RL is the Queensland domination of Origin despite incredible efforts on the part of NSW in a true elite contest.

You then throw in reasonable international competition and the NRL there is no alternative but to seek a winner from Australasia.

Silly threats. Every comment here was taken from other posters on RLfans and other forums incl LP ones. The defensive response to the dismay many have felt at such a poor decision is in my opinion knowing that the election was at best very questionable at worst plain wrong.

People can talk about opinions / beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Until the award is transparent, with those voting and their selections whomever runs this award is very much on the back foot. The excuse as to why that was not the case was lame in my opinion. I would personally prefer players and/or coaches to select such awards. The media should be excluded as they are as high subjective as we fans. Awards made by peers carry far more authority. The award should say who voted and their 3 choices. Some people may not like it that 'flash' players get greater recognition but that has always been so. For every magical player you can find numerous defenders in football or forward trojans in League. Ask any manager / coach.

Kevin Sinfield is a thoroughly nice person I believe. The best player in the world he is not. Nor is anybody playing British RL. You cannot have elite RL being usurped by a second tier standard of RL. I hate the fact it is that way but people in very important positions have been trying to 'kid' us since 1982 that it was not so. You genuinely have to go back to 1962 to find the last era when British RL was arguably the best in the world. How sad is that.

Honesty and transparency are essential to progress.

Fylde Warrior, you're perfectly entitled to believe that Kevin Sinfield isn't the best player in the world, or that the NRL is a better competition than Super League, or that Harry Edgar is a fine, upstanding individual.
What irritated me about your previous posts were your innuendos against me, and particularly against my colleague John Drake, who I work with every day and whose integrity is probably as great as anyone else I know. That's why I would like to know who you are, and who your connections are that have persuaded you to make those assertions, particularly when you consciously created an identity on here through which you could make them.
On the transparency issue, I don't know any award in Rugby League in which the voting panel is either revealed or their votes revealed.
We did it for the last few years with the Golden Boot, but some of the judges felt uncomfortable with the reaction they got from some supporters because of the way they voted. So we have now reverted to the same system that is used for most awards in sport and entertainment, and that used to be operated by Harry Edgar when he ran Open Rugby.
I agree that it's interesting to see how people vote. But you would have had more credibility on this issue if you had objected to the RLIF not making the votes public when it decided that Cameron Smith was its player of the year, or the RFL when not revealing the votes that gave Sam Tomkins the Man of Steel award.
And what about the IRB deciding that Dan Carter was the RU international player of the year?
And I suppose you will get very upset when we learn the results of the Oscars, and we are not told who has voted for all the winners at the Oscar ceremony.
In fact the only award I can think of that is truly transparent is the Albert Goldthorpe Medal, which we run in League Express.
And one final point.
The Golden Boot isn't awarded to the most consistent player (Scott Dureau won the AG Medal for that), the most exciting player (probably Ben Barba), the most elusive player (Sam Tomkins), the hardest working player (Nate Myles, perhaps), the best player around the ruck (Cameron Smith).
It's awarded to the best player in the world, taking into account all his qualities, including the way he inspires his team-mates, and that was clearly Kevin Sinfield in 2012, although I'll grant you that Cameron Smith also had a brilliant season. Just not quite good enough to win the Golden Boot.
I would also just remind you, when you talk about sub-standard competitions, that on the only two occasions when Super League teams played against NRL teams in 2012, the Super League teams won both matches. Warrington travelled to Sydney to beat Souths, and Leeds beat Manly.
That's a funny way to be second rate!

At least we know you voted for Kevin



On a serious note. Do you (you must obviously) truly believe it is possible to be the best player in the world playing in a second tier competition? Obviously it is an opinion but standards in SL have if anything gone down with finances tightening, the now healthy Aus $ to £ tigthening of loopholes. Squads are weaker season on season and as I say try comparing the top 5 squads year after year for the last 10 seasons. If those with the power to make things happen had truly invested in youth development at the onset of SL / SKY then we may now have an abundance of young talent. I know we pretend we do but comparatively we do not, our players take longer to develop and fewer do which is why we are second rate to Australia and have been throughout my lifetime. We look at youth development as a last resort. Like many I am not convinced the academy changes were born out of anything but finance. The weakness of SL is reflected by the ease that converting from PT to FT now enables Championship players to become top SL / International players.

British RL is second rate. There is no crime as some to think to be blunt about it. If as I think it is patently obvious but I fully expect you to say otherwise that we are a second tier competition, you cannot award a world best award to ANY SL player. If it was Sam Tomkins I would say exactly the same. To my mind, only Ellery Hanley can truly claim to have been the best player in the world since the award began. Sorry Mr Schofield who has a much better claim than Kevin Sinfield.

Why not use a peers voting panel? 12 coaches / captain from the Southern Hemisphere and 12 coaches / captains from the Northern Hemisphere.

Therein lies the greatest issue with justifying this award Mr Sadler

You do yourself a great disservice to try to argue a 'loaded' WCC and a 'friendly' victory assert to SL / British RL being somehow comparable to Australasia. Lets take the WCC to Australia and in their season and honestly what do you forsee as the result? Even better as we once did lets expand the WCC and truly show just how on a par we really are.

If Kevin Sinfield is so inspirational why do Leeds lose so many games, some very badly, stink at Wembley. Imagine Leeds playing in the NRL. I would safely wager Leeds will struggle to win a 1/4 of the game they take part in with the 'best player in the world'

The so called basis for arguing Kevin is the worlds best player are so flimsy and so full of holes.

Worse, the lack of honesty as to what we are / where we stand is one of the biggest factors in why we lag behind Australasia and have done for so long. Far more esteemed figure in this sport than you, I or anybody here used to pretend otherwise from 1982 onwards. One of the strngths of Open Rugby in this era was that it was totally honest about standards and quality.

For whatever reasons offered it always creates the impression those deciding upon the award were desparate for a British winner and to reward Kevin Sinfield as he reaches the last stage of his playing career. 2012 with no credible opposition for England was the optimum time to pull it off.

Hopefully people can see why peers should vote for awards and not the media or fans.

It would be interesting to see how team tightened up in terms of expansive play as SL play offs come around. FWIIW, IMO the impact of Rob Burrow at 9 was as equally important as Kevin Sinfields kicking. Maybe more important. Leeds actually become very concervative in the play offs and attempt to purely gain a field position to give a kicker a great opportunity. The Leeds front row was not dominant bar the occasional but increasingly less so Peacock storming run. Burrow bobbing and weaving made Leeds yardage game more effective to then put Kevin Sinfield in kicking range. Without that platform Kevin Sinfield is no better than the majority. The only other get out of jail card was when the opp team try to overplay and make mistakes. You see it in the CC final when Kevin Sinfield looks anything but world class until Wire start getting over confident, you see it v Wigan when Wigan enjoy periods of 'bullying' Leeds around the park. The standard in the play offs is if anything the reason why a LF can be effective at 6 as British teams tighten through pressure.

The bottom line for me though is no British player unless they play in the NRL can be a credble GB winner.

Fylde Warrior, you now seem to be flailing desperately and repeating yourself several times over but not responding to the points I raised or the questions I asked you.
The NRL is certainly a competition with more consistently high standards from team to team. No one would deny that. But to describe Super League as a second-tier competition is silly, as Super League's record in the World Club Challenge demonstrates. I admit that it may prove difficult to keep up that record as the financial disparity grows between the two competitions, but that is in the future, not the past.
And it's a non-sequitur to say that the best individual player, year by year, must always be an NRL player, just as it would be to say that the best soccer player in the world must always come from the highest paid league.
And on the subject of individual players, it's worth noting, for example, that Luke Burgess couldn't break into the Leeds team, but featured consistently in the starting lineup for South Sydney in 2013, helping them to third place in the league. So the disparity in standards doesn't seem as great as you seem to imagine.
Your arguments are all hypothetical, while you seem to think that actual evidence of clubs' and players' attainments doesn't count.

So all those wins were all due to him? he played his part , of course he did. He's a fine player, don't recall anybody disputing that. He was also in a team that could only manage 5th place in the league for the last 2 seasons and lost at wembley for the last 3 seasons but he isn't blamed for the defeats or the poor league seasons. He can't take all the flak and he can't take all the credit.
Yes he had 2 great games at the end of the year, seems the rest of the season (that the dream team is picked from) isn't took into consideration.
He's reliable, dependable an important link in the chain (is gary neville better than messi?) if he was a car he would be a Honda civic, now lets look at a porsche.

I think it is well deserved.
Sinfield makes a lot of things look very easy, and for the last few seasons I think a lot of people discredit how good he is and what the guy has achieved.
I would love to see him in the NRL.
I think its hard to see the true quality in Super league these days because it really isnt as good a competition as it was, and im not sure what the future holds for SL with the NRL salary cap going up.

Its hard to compare sinfield with the likes of Scully, Farrel etc.. but I think he is up there with this calibre of player.
I would happily swap Sinfield for anyone in the saints team apart from Roby.
To ad to it, he is probably the best goal kicker in super league.

I think he will prove a few people wrong in the world cup whether England win it or not.

Sweet Mary Martyn!

I hope you do not seriously believe what you are typing. Firstly and most importantly NOBODY with any sense believes the WCC is truly indicative of the disparity between NRL RL and British RL. However, as seems to be your party piece, random stats (lies, damned lies and stats etc.)

Martyn Sadler comes in front of Joe Public stating the WCC shows that British RL is comparable to NRL RL when in the last 4 WCC matches, British clubs have lost 3 out of the 4 despite the contest being heavily weighted in British Clubs favour (venues, travel and timing) and taken far more seriously by British clubs.
However, if I want to debate this aspect (I presumed you were a journalist which means IMO and many that what you write and put your name to is not always what you really believe) then let us consider the only time we got a possible in depth comparison, the 1997 World Club Championship!



You do realise if we throw in 1997 then the fact so many British RL clubs had the amazing 0 wins 6 defeats. Do you still want to carry on this pointless charade of arguing that the WCC disproves British RL is second rate compared to Australian RL?
Better still I can if you carry this lunacy throw in GB/England v Australia results?

I will keep repeating THE TRUTH and it hurts me as a British man.
British RL is second rate compared to Australian RL.
It has been since 1962!

You read like a mirror image of the great and the good of British RL prior to the 1982 Kangaroo Tour. Far better RL men than you and I, were then proven to be similarly deluded. To see history repeating itself in 2012/13 grates me because RL supporters deserve better from those with the opportunity to prompt and instigate change. I want to earn the right to be as proud of British RL as we are of the 1962 tourists.

You have a fantastic opportunity by your position BUT sorry you simply waste it and in the process ‘hurt’ British RL. You bring up WCC, when were they reintroduced Martyn and by whom? Not you, not LP. Look at the attendances in recent years compared to the energy and effort used by people more capable than all of us here to promote this great game. Virtually, everything good about British RL dates back from 1982 when we saw how bad British RL was and started to try to bridge a huge gap. Alas, such desire has been hijacked by self-interest from member clubs and the likes of LP have stood by whistling Dixie! Open Rugby was beyond anything LP has created. Peter Deakin and so forth showed what could be done in RL. What are we left with, the hideous pretend best player in the world award.

This entire episode / your efforts in this thread reflect so badly that Joe Bloggs British RL fans will be dismayed by the calibre of people who have an important voice and the ability to shape a game.

You can write me off, I am not important. Just an ordinary man BUT ask yourself can these individuals be ignored and dismissed;





Read and digest and to yourself and 99.9% of the British RL media ‘Grow a set and fight to make British RL better the right way’ The GB of 2012 was a pathetic ill-conceived stunt that pleases the odd one eyed Rhino fan but embarrasses the vast majority of British RL devotees.