Leigh fans are not worried,where are you getting this from? You only need to READ Budgiezilla's and CMG above post above, to see the facts about Leigh and Toronto,That's all. FWIW - No championship side atm is anywhere near good enough for SL.

Toronto and Toulouse are. But you wouldn't know, sitting on a cardboard box in Sefton Street.

No they are not.How would you know living in a coal bunker in Chorley.

I agree with a lot of what you say, I'm not worried at all, after all Leigh have only spent 2 seasons in Super League, we are used to being in the championship .
But what I will say is, I am for more interested in a club with history who have struggled for years, seeing the good times again. (i.e. Bradford, Oldham, York, Halifax, Hunslet Swinton etc) rather than a new club being created in a town/city and financing their way into the middle 8's. If Toronto gain promotion to SL, then they will have earned it. Just not sure why we have a 'planet earth' RFL, it's rather odd...to say the least. Are we that desperate ? Looks like we are...

Did Halifax move all their games to another country, or play home games en block while their stand was being built..

Sorry Jean, they are NOT yet good enough. Granted, they are amongst the best three clubs in the Championship, (with Featherstone) but until they prove themselves in the 'Middle 8's', they have not proved themselves good enough for Super League.

Toronto could be, but they'll have to keep spending and shifting (better) players in and out of the squad to be competitive in the M8's. What could count against them is a lack of consistency in the team, and how that could affect things when they come up against stronger opposition. If Leigh keep on improving then they could be a threat in the M8's, but no other Championship club is anywhere near being able to compete with any current SL team.

Toronto are a good thing, a good thing but only with an open, transparent & honest agenda from the RFL.

Don't ask any heartland Club to blindly accept their ridiculous artificially inflated attendance figures *which should be based on actual purchased & paid for tickets for all clubs, no freebies* only the selectively blind fail to see the reality.

Do not ask those with sense to accept that they could not be pushing the edge re the Salary Cap or that they are playing with more Non Fed players than is permitted for all other clubs.

Do not ask those with any semblance of intelligence to blindly believe that TW have unfairly side stepped their commitment to playing in Canada by staging some of their "Home" games in London, Manchester etc or that it is in any way fair to play en-block & having the definite advantage of a season ending run of home advantage en-block while other clubs play home & away.

Toronto IMHO 'SHOULD' be admitted to SL along with Toulouse, but do not insult our intelligence & rather, be open & honest & submit an agreed plan from the outset, DO NOT in any way ask us to swallow the BS spin that we know is false.

If the RFL had come out & asked the member clubs to allow a stepped introduction of TW & Toulouse & also possibly London then it would more likely *I suspect* to be accepted by fans of heartland clubs 'if' it were honestly & openly communicated.

Let's not pretend this is a level playing field, it never was with Catalans after all, but is it not easier to accept something which can be openly seen than something that is shrouded in smoke & mirrors ?

FWIW, get TW in regardless of their ability to win a MPG, Toulouse also & maybe London but, give them a set framework & a deadline to be SL ready, this will allow them to prepare & invest knowing they are to be admitted.
Do not accept their word they are ready, check, check that their are actually 7,000 paying spectators, make sure that they are operating within the same rules *non fed players etc* as everyone else, be honest *difficult for the RFL* & see the change in perception from fans of other clubs.

Welcome them, but not AT ANY COST !

Indeed there is


Going on the TV evidence, there is not a chance in hell that they averaged at 78% capacity of their "home" ground. But, but telling an untruth and then repeating it, they convinced many RL fans that Canadians love the game.....the reality is that at Brunch-time events in Down Town Toronto fewer than 200 have turned up to watch live tele-casts of the game....those poor RL starved Canadians.....


The falshood about attendances comes from their lies, not mine. As for where their fans originate from, we'll never know because once they are in SL the screens will all go up again and it'll never be made public knowledge until they fold once Argyle leaves.


Quota and Cap suspicions are warranted. Also are the comments regarding cost cutting. A regular Home and Away season would have cost them a lot more than 10 weeks bed and board in Toronto, all in one hit after the majority of the team spent the start of the season staying with their mums!


If the trap door gets pulled up (it will have to, because North Americans don't want, do or understand relegation" then clubs in the lower tiers will wither and vanish as professional entities.



As I said at the top, there is a load of speculation and rumour. The best way for that to stop is for the RFL/SL and the Pack to come clean.

They can start by not lying about attendances.....this weekend they should easily fill Fletchers Fields given their hoardes of fanatics have been starved of live action.....it's a 30 minute drive from downtown Toronto.....I wonder why they haven't been playing there sooner.....hmmmmm....it's a mystery. FWIW, many Torontonians will commute by over an hour to get to work........ Where's Perez gone?.......cryptic "he's a shareholder but not an employee' statements from the club and nothing from him in Boston, Hamilton, NYC or nevernever land........Hmmmm.....more mysteries.

I am not pushing anything as fact other than they owe their kit supplier money....which they do. The Kit Supplier posts on these very boards and will support this. That's why they've the same shirts as last year in their shop and the only new item is a locally sourced scarf....(7,000 fans, surely there's be more for them to buy".....

..as for wanting them to fail? Nope.....I'd love it they went all the way to Old Trafford, but the reality is that if they do, they will do so without a single Canadian playing for them, with an Australian bankrolling them and no sign of any of the mythical broadcast deals or sponsors flocking to our gates.....Remember, the bearded wonder walked us out at Wembley and we made 2 play offs as well as finishing 2nd in the league.....we now play at a wedding venue in the 2nd tier, bankrolled by a bloke with a guilty conscience...Argyle doesn't have a conscience.

How capacity is determined at their venue, I'm unsure. Whether it only includes the two stands or whether it includes the beer garden also, I'd need confirming. But if it doesn't, then that beer garden holds a lot and wild explain why the stands look emptier than you'd think, as well as the notorious late-coming Toronto public.

So just pushing pure speculation doesn't make you appear to be doing more than just pushing your agenda; not to mention the snobbery of only 200 attending live telecasts - maybe others were watching from home?


The falsehood about attendances comes from your speculation and second guessing based on them wanting to fail for some reason.


Ahh, I see. You're making one of those "I'll make a point, but you can't prove that I'm wrong" kind of arguments. A bit like the "chocolate teapot orbiting the sun near Pluto" kind of argument.


Why? Because we can't prove otherwise?
Do they have the same quota rules being an expansion club?
The cap is the same as SL now. I don't think they're paying the same as a SL team currently. I think Leigh probably pay more. Yes, they're making a lot of signings, but they're releasing a lot of players also.
I think cap speculation is again only pushed by those with an agenda.


1) You can only play at certain times of year in Toronto due to the climate, so some exceptions were always going to need to be made.
2) Their home ground being renovated has also required them to request to play away longer. This isn't going to happen every year and other clubs will and do ask for away games at certain times because of this (Leeds, Hull, etc).
3) Considering what the club are paying for (not just their own travel but that of the other teams also), it's fair to say that if they want to look at some ways of cutting costs, I think it's understandable given they're not receiving any funding from the game but are indeed funding others.


Who said the trap door will be pulled up?
And even if it was, I didn't see them wither and die between 2008-2014.
Hyperbole is not an argument.


Ridiculous comment. They don't need to do anything. For you to say they need to come clean already means you've made your mind up. What if they have nothing to come clean about and everything you have said is wrong? You have no facts. People don't need to come out to squash rumours. That's not how the world works.

If you make a claim, it's up to you to prove it, not the others to refute it.


So now you're saying they should over stretch themselves? Why should they have to? They're not needing to prove anything to you. Why risk money on a large stadium (that for all we know could be unavailable) for what is still a club in its early development?

Give over. The standards you're asking of them are not in a par to anyone else. You'd never ask Leigh to play at Old Trafford in the Championship.


More mysteries... or more conspiracies? For someone claiming to be for expansion, you're looking hard to knock it down... even in areas where you have literally no information!


I won't comment on the kit supplying issue because I wouldn't know and aren't willing to speculate. If it's what you have based all the rest of your speculation on though, it's a bloody big leap!


You want then to go all the way to Old Trafford, but even if they do, they don't deserve it basically. Yeah, that sounds like you're all in favour.

You have an agenda. Admit it. Don't sit behind your keyboard pedaling accusations about clubs lying when you can't even be honest on an online message board. You want them to fail because it's not expansion in the way you see fit, and rather than see this succeed, you'd rather they fail in order to prove yourself right. Which club do you support out of interest?


Oh dear. Did the RFL forget to ask him that question when doing their due diligence?

I agree with you.
However, it may become a question of trying to advance the game, raising its profile and increasing revenue or, the game reverting to semi pro status.
Pre Super League, RL was great to watch, you could change ends at HT, mix with opposition fans etc but, Professional sport, like it or not, is all about the money and RL in the UK is going backwards.
How would you suggest that we reverse the trend ?

Super league clubs have been inflating attendances for decades by including freebies and tickets purchased but not used. Now a team from another country do it and the little englanders of Leigh and Halifax get all upset. Work that one out

Regards

King James

Toronto and any other clubs can do what they want within the rules and include freebies and non-attending ticket holders in their attendance figures, but it's when folk on forums like this then start saying how great their attendances are that is wrong. Fax played Toronto last weekend supposedly with an attendance of 1658. From people actually attending, the actual number of bodies in the ground was probably around 700. This suggests that they included all their ST holders who were back in Canada (this was technically a home game for Toronto). All of that's fine from the Toronto club's perspective in recording a 1658 attendance, but tickets were only £5, and the reality was that half of that number at most were in the ground.

And for this reason they should not be allowed in SL ?

Season ticket holders whether attending or not have paid for a ticket to the game. The club have received income from said season ticket holders for that game (pro rata). As long as it is a league fixture it is fine to include them, the data point used for attendance figures is tickets bought/admission fee paid not bums on seats or faces on the terrace. Every club declares then using the same criterion to calculate the figure.

The inclusion of free tickets is more disingenuous I agree (it would be better if freebies handed out but not used weren't counted) but when every club that offers free or discounted entry is including them it can hardly be a justifiable stick to beat a club with. Has there been much criticism of Swinton and other Championship and League 1 clubs that have run cheap/free entry for SL ST holders when they declared their crowds? I can't remember any.

Not at all, I've no issue with Toronto being promoted if they perform on the field of play. The potential problem is if the club's benefactors lose interest, then they would go into free fall without a solid fan base to help pay wages and run the club.



I agree, other than I wasn't having a go at the club, it's at those individuals who start using attendances to "big them up". FWIW, I think that changing the rules so that attendances were measured using turnstile clicks rather than tickets sold would be far more sensible. The dictionary definition of "attendance" is "The number of people present at a particular place or event.".

The attendance threads are usually one of two ways aren't they. Either people are taking figures at face value and shouting from the rooftops at how high they are or they are decrying them saying things like "4000 crowd, 400 more like". I was referring to some posts in general rather than yours specifically but some people will slate a club for the disparity between published figures and the number of faces in the ground while ignoring the fact that their club does the same. It's the reason I don't read attendance threads.

So....
1. Toronto claim an average home gate of 7000ish
2. Only half of that number actually turn up
3. Of those that do, many turn up late
4. And many also spend much of the the match in the beer and food tents

That about it?

Exactly. Why doesn’t this upset Leigh fans?

Regards

King James

Here you go, something for your obsession with Leigh fans, to fantasise over tonight.
Don't get too carried away now.





Regards

King Tut

How do you know only half turn up?
All we have to go on is a few flat cappers, who are desperate for Toronto to fail, claiming this.

Even if this were true (which i don’t believe it is) 3500 is still a good Championship attendance and similar to what Salford get.

And thats without any away fans

Genius sir.........simply GENIUS

Look at this amazing 'school playing field' where Toronto host Swinton later today....

Salford get 3500 attendances?