FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > More Bullmania |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "Im not changing the topic at all. You said that Wakefield took drastic action to avoid Admin because the RFL told them they would need to start in C1. The inference from that being that had the RFL not told Wakefield they would have needed to start in C1 they wouldn’t have taken such action and simply gone in to Admin, avoiding debts we now know for certain they could pay.'"
You are though,
I responded to this
And explained that there's no logic in your line of thought when you consider the drastic actions taken by Wakefield.
You then start spouting that I'm looking for sympathy when that's never even been part of the conversation.
You're all over the place fella!
You do this jumping from one point to another because you've painted yourself into a corner and to avoid looking bad you change the point.
Just concede, we'd all have some respect left for you then
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| Quote: SmokeyTA " they have done exactly what they are supposed to do, they tried to survive and have done so. Are you saying that Wakefield should have been allowed to go in to admin to avoid debts they could pay and that they deserve praise for not doing something which is essentially fraud?'"
Correct, and about the only thing you've said that I agree with.
Bradford on the other hand made no effort whatsoever to try and survive by doing what Wakefield have done and have instead taken the easy route and written off large debts that they too could have paid if they'd been willing to let any of their squad actually go. Oh, and if they'd done that the first time then maybe they wouldn't have avtually ended up in the same mess again so soon afterwards.
Thanks for finally seeing the point!
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| Quote: wrencat1873 "You seem convinced that Smokey is right and yet all other parties are wrong, because they fail to agree with your version of events, even though you were not present.
Given that Wakefield had be in admn. only 3 years ago, it seemed perfectly reasonable for them to be told that a further episode of insolvency would mean relegation to a lower league.
It is your own refusal to accept this circumstance that is allowing you to peddle the usual "Smokey is always right" nonsense and yet, to all of he people present at the meeting , the message was clear.
"IF YOU ENTER ADMIN YOU WILL BE RELEGATED" and this I why the Trinity fans are up in arms.
Of course, any conversation between Mick Carter and the RFL wont just have ben a single question, that isn't how the world spins but, this was the information given to the fans who attended the meeting and if you wish to change history, I suggest that you rent a time machine and see if you can go back in time and change what was said.
Alternatively, we could all choose to believe your own version of events, instead of the Chairman of Wakefield Trinity.
I know who I believe
But you aren’t believing the Wakefield Chairmans version of events. You are massively extrapolating from one statement to build this whole picture to find some way in which you have been hard-done by.
You are, even though you seem to wish you weren’t, confirming what I am saying that it is naïve to think Wakefields discussions on a possible administration with the RFL weren’t far more detailed, far more specific and far more in depth than is being described here, and that leaves us with no other possibility than Mr Carter was paraphrasing and that’s fine, I am in no way criticising him for it, im not suggesting it was untoward in anyway, that he was trying to mislead in any way. Im simply saying that the broad strokes used here mean that you can find a double standard where there may be none. That the statement made by Michael Carter that ‘go in to admin and you start again in C1’ can be true, it can be a paraphrasing it could even be a verbatim quote of an unequivocal demand. It still ignores the circumstances of Wakefield, it still ignores the circumstances of Bradford and any difference there may be.
For you to choose to see this double standard, you need to simplify it further and further and further until it has less and less relation to what actually happened. For you to see this as a double standard you need to ignore the fact that nothing has happened yet, you need to ignore the circumstances under which Wakefield may have gone in to admin, ignore the circumstances they may have come out of admin, ignore the circumstances Bradford did go in to admin, ignore the circumstances they came out of admin. For you double standard to be a double standard you cant stretch much further in your descriptions than admin=C1 because the more detail we go in to, the more differences there are, the less it looks like a double standard and the more its just applying two different resolutions to two different circumstances.
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| Quote: Fordy "Correct, and about the only thing you've said that I agree with.
Bradford on the other hand made no effort whatsoever to try and survive by doing what Wakefield have done and have instead taken the easy route and written off large debts that they too could have paid if they'd been willing to let any of their squad actually go. Oh, and if they'd done that the first time then maybe they wouldn't have avtually ended up in the same mess again so soon afterwards.
Thanks for finally seeing the point!'"
Yes BRadford have.
It seems odd you need it pointing out to you again that it is very silly to pretend that cutting costs = more sustainable. It doesnt. Bradford saving £500k on wages and losing £600k in season ticket and merchandise sales does the very opposite of what you are suggesting.
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| Quote: Sesquipedalian "You are though,
I responded to this
[iYou said that Wakefield took drastic action to avoid Admin because the RFL told them they would need to start in C1. The inference from that being that had the RFL not told Wakefield they would have needed to start in C1 they wouldn’t have taken such action and simply gone in to Admin, avoiding debts we now know for certain they could pay.[/i
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Club Owner | 33944 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "Yes BRadford have.
It seems odd you need it pointing out to you again that it is very silly to pretend that cutting costs
Which if it is the case shows how fickle their fan base actually is, doesnt it?
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "[iYou said that Wakefield took drastic action to avoid Admin because the RFL told them they would need to start in C1. The inference from that being that had the RFL not told Wakefield they would have needed to start in C1 they wouldn’t have taken such action and simply gone in to Admin, avoiding debts we now know for certain they could pay.[/i'"
It's not an inference at all, I have no doubt that had the RFL not made their threat Andrew Glover and James Elston would have placed the club in the hands of the Administrator. That would have been wrong and the club would rightly have been relegated!
Now, remind me again what Bradford have just done?
There's a clue in the bold bit
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "It seems odd you need it pointing out to you again that it is very silly to pretend that cutting costs
For the avoidance of doubt - you're suggesting that whilst it was untenable for Bradford cut its cloth and risk the resulting reduction in income, it was absolutely fine for Wakefield to be forced to do the very same thing?
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| Quote: Fordy "Correct, and about the only thing you've said that I agree with.
Bradford on the other hand made no effort whatsoever to try and survive by doing what Wakefield have done and have instead taken the easy route and written off large debts that they too could have paid if they'd been willing to let any of their squad actually go. Oh, and if they'd done that the first time then maybe they wouldn't have avtually ended up in the same mess again so soon afterwards.
Thanks for finally seeing the point!'"
Yes, Bradford haven't sold off players or reduced the hours or made redundant other members of staff across the board. Nope, they've made no effort whatsover
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| I see it's a case of taking polar opposite views or no view at all.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "Yes BRadford have.
It seems odd you need it pointing out to you again that it is very silly to pretend that cutting costs
Could you please send me some of what you have had to drink this afternoon.
Bradford have tried the expensive investment route (twice) and gone pop ! twice.
Are you seriously suggesting, at this point in time that they should again speculate by signing a tam of "superstars", in order to protect their income ?
Fantastic !, you sir should be running the country !
The phrase about cutting ones cloth seems to be the most appropriate way forward, unless of course they can find a Ken Davy type figure, wit several million to "invest".
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| Can any wakey fan prove that the rfl threatened them with relegation? Because an awful lot of animosity towards Bradford appears to stem from something that I'm not sure ever happened.
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| Quote: bewareshadows "As far as I am aware the RFL have not yet made a decision on the penalty that will be impossed on Bradford. So there are some hefty assumptions going on that they will get off scott free.
I've yet to see any rule stating administration will result in relegation. I'm not going to go into who has said what to whom as quite frankly very few of us where there.
There is a rule about not paying debts to HMRC, but this is treated seperately to administration. It has it's own little area in the rule book and there is no numbered sanction on it.
So it's entirely possible that both case are correct.
Wakey could have been going into Admin due to debts, but that may have included debts to the HMRC and they may very well have been told if you can't pay the HMRC you will have to start at the bottom again.
Bradford have been through an Admin process but have said they are working with creditors, which ( I don't know) could include the HMRC.
In terms of administration the situations are the same, but in terms of the extra blurb in the regulations one gets caught by the HMRC the other does not.
We will never know unless someone asks the RFL what exactly has happened in each case. But given that regulations cover a multitude of offenses, you can't say they are both the same if they are not.
Does anyone on here actually know the full in's and out's of both Wakefields and Bradfords Situations. Can they say that they have sat down with both situations and found they both cover the same set of rules?
Whilst the internet is awash with rumours and facts, separating out those two to decided whether they are both the same situation is imposible.
Whether a reporter will have the nouce to ask the RFL such a detailed question I doubt, as they tend to ask very general questions about the state of the game when they do get to interview someone at the RFL.'"
Well down Beware, the fact no one has bothered to reply to your post probably show it's a well balanced view that no one can argue with
Can I just point out to the other posters who state Bradford "made no effort to cut cloth" as I've said a few
Times we made many office staff redundant, reduced hours. Reduction in pay.
We have lost Bateman, Platt, Langley, Naughton, Lulia, Whitehead, Murphy and L'estrange.
Yes we brought in Carvell, Ferguson George and Gaskell and Henry. Now with the exception of Carvell and possibly Ferguson the rest won't be on as much as the players we have lost.
Now Carvell was brought under the Khan regime half way through last year. The whole squad were told they could leave if they chose. If Carvell was on a £100k
+ wage at the bulls, only the top clubs have the money to pay that. But I'd imagined most are up to the cap so maybe no one was interested or couldn't afford him. We can't just sack him.
Wakey fans make out they were Holier than thou, how many winding up orders did you have last year. Thankfully for your clubs sake you sound like you got yourselves an honest businessman as chairman who won't over spend who managed to get the club off the previous regime without and fuss. Unfortunately this did not happen for us.
Unfortunately our regime overspent, the new directors came in and stated straight away they need to cut and they did! Unfortunately they could not get a deal in time until a security firm called in the administrators to get the deal done. The bulls did not deliberately go in to admin to deviously clear their debts. If they brought the club earlier I am very confident they would not have put the club into administration.
We DESERVE a points deduction, but I just thought I'd correct people who say we didn't make any effort to make cuts and deliberately went into admin because they are wrong.
As you were...
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| Quote: Pumpetypump "Can any wakey fan prove that the rfl threatened them with relegation? Because an awful lot of animosity towards Bradford appears to stem from something that I'm not sure ever happened.'"
Ask the chairman. He is the source. He doesn't seem the type to BS anyone, in fact one criticism laid at him in the earlier stages was he was too upfront about sensitive club matters.
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