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FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > More foreigners than Englishmen in the 17 |
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| Quote: MrPhilb "I trust Leeds will not be fielding thier 7 overseas players against Wigan on saturday?'" It probably depends on whether or not they choose to player their club developed English international winger/fullback/ at Winger or ullback. If Smith plays on the wing, then no, Scott Donald, who i have long said shouldnt have got a contract at Leeds, he also isnt good enough to be taking a place from a young british player, (he also is an SL dream team member twice in two seasons like dobson) wont be playing, He is leaving at the end of this season and isnt likely to replaced by an overseas player as Leeds have 2 club developed English international wingers in Smith and Hall, a young prospect who has been given games in Watkins and another three quarter, developed by leeds in the England Train-on squad in BJB. Not to mention Broughton who is in the train on squad who was developed at Leeds, Calderwood and Fox, also international wingers developed by leeds. Though the principle is correct, Leeds should have been able to develop a winger better than Donald(which to be far, we have done a fair few times) and Prop who can do the job Kylie does Which would bring us down to five, Which imo would be the ideal number for clubs to be aiming for. 5 high quality imports. Quote: MrPhilb "7 strangely the same amount as Hull Kingston Australia fielded against Wigan this past week'" Because your others where injured. If you are happy to go into the game against wigan with 7, why do you need to add three to that number next year? i wouldnt complain if you were going into next year with 7, it would show you were moving in the right direction.
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| At the end of the day Smokey with all these average australians Rovers have signed and with the further ones they will be adding coupled with the fact that Leeds have all these superb home grown players you might be able to defeat Hull Kingston Australia at least once in the league next season
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "Completely wrong. If Dobson were to go back to Aus now he still wouldnt be a first grade halfback. With his age he would likely have been cast off.'"
What that every player could be better? Whether Dobson would be reserve grade or not in the NRL is irrelevant. He is SL quality and not only that dream team 2 years running means he has clearly added to the quality of the competition.
Quote: SmokeyTA "The fact we cant produce 12 halfbacks better than him is evidence of how poor our development is. One of the reasons it is poor is because at 18/19/20 players arent getting necessary game time they need because they at that stage, with 0 experience arent better than a 24 year old Michael Dobson who has 4 years SL experience.'"
Do you think that Justin Morgan is so stupid that given choice of comparable half backs, if they were available, he would choose to pay twice/three times as much for one just because he's an Aussie?
Quote: SmokeyTA "Not at all. It is since being back in SL that Hudds have brought through Lawrence, Cudjoe, Mcgilveray, These players werent affiliated to Hudds when they were in the NLs, They have been brought in since. Since promotion they have gone out and signed Lunt, Kirmond, Raleigh and Patrick from outside SL. The have picked up young players like Carlile and Mcnally
Why can Huddersfield find 3 british halfbacks but Hull KR cant find one? Brough and Robinson are clearly good enough for an SL side, Mcnally is clearly good enough to be given a shot, he is now 19 perfect age to be stepping up to first grade level yet Hull KR need to go out and sign a reserve grade halfback like Blake Green to go with a reserve grade halfback like Michael Dobson.'"
They did get a parachute payment specifically for youth development. And who did they sign Raleigh from? If he wasn't given the same ultimatum as Chris Charles (who went to Salford) sign now for guaranteed SL rugby or stay where you are and take your chances, he would probably still be at Hull KR now. If Blake Green turns out like Micahel Dobson then we'll have an excellent half back pairing. This is the same argument you are making about signing from lower leagues, why are there not excellent Aussie players outside of or on the fringes of the NRL?
Quote: SmokeyTA "If your youth development isnt good enough yet why not give a shot to 21 year old Kyle Wood, he is moving to Cas at the end of this year from Hudds? or 18 year old Cain Southernwood who got massive raps at the Wildcats and is an England Academy international, he has moved to the Bulls?
Isnt Tansey rumoured to be available? Can do a decent job at halfback, he is young, british, and played 21 games in leeds 2007 title winning season. 18 in their 2008 SL winning season.
Matty Smith is moving to salford at the end of the year, again, why not get him in. Clearly good enough to play for Hull KR
Richie Myler moved at the end of last year why didnt you get him?'"
I think the under 18's prove that our youth development is now good enough, you simply refuse to acknowledge the time required to recruit, develop and bring these players into the SL squad given the specific circumstances faced by Hull KR.
Quote: SmokeyTA "You could look at the lower leagues, give a shot to Thackray or Allan?
If you do need more time to get your youth development in order (and i think 5 years is enough to be honest, many many many players are regulars as teenagers) then in the meantime go british, it worked out with Watts, you have shown its not that difficult why not do it again?'"
If there are players which will enhance Rovers' squad whether they be British, Aussie, Kiwi or Chinese, SL, NRL, National Leagues or Tiddlywinks players and they are available and want to come to Rovers then I'm sure we'll sign them.
I'm quite surprised by your u-turn on this from the point of arguing prior to SL expansion that there were emphatically NO players outside SL of SL quality. Now you seem to see them everywhere!
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| Quote: MrPhilb "At the end of the day Smokey with all these average australians Rovers have signed and with the further ones they will be adding coupled with the fact that Leeds have all these superb home grown players you might be able to defeat Hull Kingston Australia at least once in the league next season'" thats some straw your clutching at
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| Quote: Barnacle Bill "What that every player could be better? Whether Dobson would be reserve grade or not in the NRL is irrelevant. He is SL quality and not only that dream team 2 years running means he has clearly added to the quality of the competition.'" thats a self-fulfilling argument, if we accept playing SL means you are SL quality and that adds to the the quality of the competition then we could simply employ the entire french 2nd tier and put them in SL. They would then by definition of playing in SL be SL quality players and as such adding to the quality of the comp.
Quote: Barnacle Bill "
Do you think that Justin Morgan is so stupid that given choice of comparable half backs, if they were available, he would choose to pay twice/three times as much for one just because he's an Aussie?'" How much do you think Blake Green is on? an how much do you think that would compare to a player like Wood, Southernwood, Myler etc? you really think Green will be on two or three times more? I dont think its down to cost, its down to risk. Going for Green is seen as the 'safe' option.
Quote: Barnacle Bill "
They did get a parachute payment specifically for youth development. And who did they sign Raleigh from? '" They signed him from Hull KR in NL1. Im not sure why this is relevant, unless its another attempt to claim Hull KR are responsible for Andy Raleigh even though they were his third club.
Quote: Barnacle Bill "
If he wasn't given the same ultimatum as Chris Charles (who went to Salford) sign now for guaranteed SL rugby or stay where you are and take your chances, he would probably still be at Hull KR now.'" And? its a pretty poor effort to take 5/6 years to replace Andy Raleigh, A player you didnt even develop.
Quote: Barnacle Bill " If Blake Green turns out like Micahel Dobson then we'll have an excellent half back pairing. This is the same argument you are making about signing from lower leagues, why are there not excellent Aussie players outside of or on the fringes of the NRL?'" because it isnt sustianable for the entire league to rely on NRL fringe players. It damages the league, damages the international team and benefits no-one. And before you bring in your straw man argument of expecting you to have no overseas players or an entire squad of british players i dont. I just think considering you already have 9, and considering 3 of those never made it being NRL regulars, 2 of them never made an NRL appearance, you should be taking the same risk with younger british players.
Quote: Barnacle Bill "
I think the under 18's prove that our youth development is now good enough, you simply refuse to acknowledge the time required to recruit, develop and bring these players into the SL squad given the specific circumstances faced by Hull KR.'" If your under18s are so good, then at 19 next year they will be ready for SL rugby, how are you going to give them SL rugby with 10 overseas players? If they are good enough, then at 19 they need to be playing first grade. Why arent they getting a few games this year? and why do you need 10 overseas players next year?
Quote: Barnacle Bill "
If there are players which will enhance Rovers' squad whether they be British, Aussie, Kiwi or Chinese, SL, NRL, National Leagues or Tiddlywinks players and they are available and want to come to Rovers then I'm sure we'll sign them.'" im sure you will, which isnt a good thing. It just highlights how poor your commitment to the game, and to the young players of this country is.
Quote: Barnacle Bill "
I'm quite surprised by your u-turn on this from the point of arguing prior to SL expansion that there were emphatically NO players outside SL of SL quality. Now you seem to see them everywhere!
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "thats a self-fulfilling argument, if we accept playing SL means you are SL quality and that adds to the the quality of the competition then we could simply employ the entire french 2nd tier and put them in SL. They would then by definition of playing in SL be SL quality players and as such adding to the quality of the comp.'"
Not really, if the entire French 2nd tier team were put in SL and were all chosen in the dream team then yes, I would argue they have added to the quality of the competition. Otherwise your argument is, once again, ludicrous.
Quote: SmokeyTA "How much do you think Blake Green is on? an how much do you think that would compare to a player like Wood, Southernwood, Myler etc? you really think Green will be on two or three times more? I dont think its down to cost, its down to risk. Going for Green is seen as the 'safe' option.'"
What makes Blake Green a 'safe' option?
Quote: SmokeyTA "They signed him from Hull KR in NL1. Im not sure why this is relevant, unless its another attempt to claim Hull KR are responsible for Andy Raleigh even though they were his third club.
And? its a pretty poor effort to take 5/6 years to replace Andy Raleigh, A player you didnt even develop.'"
One minute your saying sign players from other clubs, then your having a downer on HKR because they "didn't develop" the player. Your getting a bit transparent Smokey, I expect better of you.
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| Quote: Barnacle Bill "Not really, if the entire French 2nd tier team were put in SL and were all chosen in the dream team then yes, I would argue they have added to the quality of the competition. Otherwise your argument is, once again, ludicrous.'" Well they would be in the dream team because the dreamteam would be picked from them.
Quote: Barnacle Bill "What makes Blake Green a 'safe' option?
'" a misplaced confidence in NRL reserve graders
One minute your saying sign players from other clubs, then your having a downer on HKR because they "didn't develop" the player. Your getting a bit transparent Smokey, I expect better of you.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA " Though the principle is correct, Leeds should have been able to develop a winger better than Donald(which to be far, we have done a fair few times) and Prop who can do the job Kylie does Which would bring us down to five, '"
Just out of interest Smokey, who are these fair few lads we've developed who are better than Donald or Kylie?
Quote: SmokeyTA "Which imo would be the ideal number for clubs to be aiming for. 5 high quality imports.'"
I'd agree with that, as long as they are high quality. I'd also say that a reduction needs to be done slowly, there's no point chucking in a young lad simply because he's English. They need to be of sufficient quality otherwise it just dilutes the standard of the competition and helps no-one.
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| Quote: BigRob "Just out of interest Smokey, who are these fair few lads we've developed who are better than Donald or Kylie?'" Hall, Smith, Broughton, Gibson, Watkins, all either have the potential to be, or already better than Donald. Kylie we havent which is disappointing, but Ambler looks to have the potential to be much much better.
Quote: BigRob "I'd agree with that, as long as they are high quality. I'd also say that a reduction needs to be done slowly, there's no point chucking in a young lad simply because he's English. They need to be of sufficient quality otherwise it just dilutes the standard of the competition and helps no-one.'" there will always, inevitably be the dilution of the competion. We need to rip of the plaster and just get it over and done with. Until a club sees the downsides of not developing their players they wont. As we are seeing. And im not asking for the moon on a stick here, i cant agree the quality of the league would fall drastically if Hull KR exchanged say, Lovegrove, Fisher, and Green, for say Amor, Kain, and Thackray.
Just because players arent playing SL doesnt mean they couldnt. Kirmond and Lunt are perfect examples of players who have improved the quality of the league because they are better than the equivelant players Hudds would have got had they followed the Hull KR route, players like Lovegrove and Fisher. So by giving a shot to these players we have in fact raised the quality of the league.
A few years ago Sheffield gave an untried 19 year old Rugby Union centre a position instead of a 25 year old NRL reserve grader. He wasnt an immediate success. He is now one the best players in SL history. There are others out there who could do the same, Leeds are trying with Amor and Coady, Hudds did it with Lunt and Kirmond why cant Hull KR?
Your argument would also hold water if the players they were bringing in were proven talents,they arent.
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| " If they haven't made it at 19 , they never will "
Is a post made by a poster involved on this argument
Any guesses ?
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "
one player in 3 years isnt a statement of intent, 2 players in 4 years isnt either Who? The 4 games given the 23year old Mariano? the couple of games given to 22 year old Mike Ratu. And Which are likely to step up next year and who are they replacing?
'"
Scott Taylor & Josh Hodgson have both had game time this year,and will probably be replacing Ben Galea and Ben Fisher at the end of next season.
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| Quote: Red & White "Scott Taylor & Josh Hodgson have both had game time this year,and will probably be replacing Ben Galea and Ben Fisher at the end of next season.'" So why do you need to add Willie Mason?
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "Hall, Smith, Broughton, Gibson, Watkins, all either have the potential to be, or already better than Donald. Kylie we havent which is disappointing, but Ambler looks to have the potential to be much much better.'"
Hall - perhaps, remains to be seen. If he keeps up his current form for a few more years then yes id agree.
Smith - sometimes he plays better, sometimes he plays worse. The fact that people aren't quite convinced he's an out and out winger yet and that after his brief stint in Union he's put on more weight than me after Christmas Day means the jury is still out on Smith.
Gibson & Watkins - are centres.
Broughton - has potential yes.
But all players have potential and besides is not what you said. You said that Leeds have developed a fair few wingers better than Donald. That is cr@p. At a push we've created one in Hall, and thats being generous. Thats also not criticising Hall, more praising Donald. Donald is a very good winger and in England we aren't, for whatever reason, producing good threequarters. Leeds included.
As for players better than Kylie, well we haven't produced any of those either. As you say Ambler has potential but to be "much much better" as you put it is a bold statement. That would be putting Ambler into the Peacock/Morley/Graham/Webcke/Price/Civoniceva category. Considering the lad is only 20 thats incredible foresight you have there. Plus we signed him from Salford.
Quote: SmokeyTA "there will always, inevitably be the dilution of the competion. We need to rip of the plaster and just get it over and done with. Until a club sees the downsides of not developing their players they wont. As we are seeing. And im not asking for the moon on a stick here, i cant agree the quality of the league would fall drastically if Hull KR exchanged say, Lovegrove, Fisher, and Green, for say Amor, Kain, and Thackray.
Just because players arent playing SL doesnt mean they couldnt. Kirmond and Lunt are perfect examples of players who have improved the quality of the league because they are better than the equivelant players Hudds would have got had they followed the Hull KR route, players like Lovegrove and Fisher. So by giving a shot to these players we have in fact raised the quality of the league.
A few years ago Sheffield gave an untried 19 year old Rugby Union centre a position instead of a 25 year old NRL reserve grader. He wasnt an immediate success. He is now one the best players in SL history. There are others out there who could do the same, Leeds are trying with Amor and Coady, Hudds did it with Lunt and Kirmond why cant Hull KR?
Your argument would also hold water if the players they were bringing in were proven talents,they arent.'"
For some reason, maybe because you know you're up a certain creek and paddleless, you seem to have tried to turn my argument into saying SL clubs should sign average Aussies. It's not and you know its not.
Everybody knows and agrees we have to reduce the number of imports in SL, the debate is over how best to do that. You think that the best way is to just slash the quota immediately (just out of interest, you don't work for the Tory Party do you?), whereas I would suggest a slower approach.
The problem with your way is that if we just immediately cut the quota to 5 then there would be 33 fewer imports playing in SL this season. Are there 33 English players of sufficient quality to replace every single one of them. If there aren't then the quality of the competition will decline, that then means that the English players who are of sufficient quality are playing at a lower level every week than they otherwise would have been. This obviously then affects the national team when we get our annual kicking off the Aussies, only this time it'll be worse than usual.
If, instead of that approach, we gradually reduce the quota (and since this is the approach the RFL have taken I assume they would agree too) then clubs have the opportunity to replace those imports steadily over time with youngsters of sufficient quality rather than chucking in young lads because they've no one else.
No-one is saying don't give young lads a chance either, just do it responsibly.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "So why do you need to add Willie Mason?'"
To add some beef to our pack,also he will hopefully put bums on seats and also bring on the young kids like,Liam Watts,Scott Taylor,Josh Hodgson,Scott Wheeldon etc.
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