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Club Captain | 268 | Warrington Wolves |
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| Quote shinymcshine="shinymcshine"So skew the figures to suit whatever point is trying to be made ?
In that case Saints don't come out particularly well as a % attendance against 1.4m population for Merseyside....... whereas London Broncos seem pretty good as a % of the population of 300k in Richmond (from their data at The Stoop).
(Do the maths and you'll sort of see the point)'"
Boroughs are haphazardly designed - sometimes due to tradition, sometimes due to politics, and so on...
Most appropriate approach would probably be to do something like quantify the population within a 30-minute drive time of the ground. But I think that is called 'geodesic analysis' and it's done a lot nowadays in marketing (for example, when a store like TK Maxx is trying to find the ideal location for a new store and develop a marketing approach) and you would need someone able to access the data sets and analyse them properly - usually someone with a Masters in Maths or Marketing.
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Club Captain | 2534 | No Team Selected |
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Nov 2019 | 6 years | |
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| Quote shinymcshine="shinymcshine"It shows how dead our sport is when some fans of successful clubs with over 100 yrs of history think their club is doing well supporter wise, when they 'boast' of having just 5k-10k more fans than some relatively fledgling clubs.
That Saints, Wigan and Leeds haven't made significant gains outside of their immediate areas shows the games inability to penetrate into any new fan base.'"
If we can't "penetrate into a new fan base" then how come average crowds in Superleague were 8,200 before the pandemic arrived and only 5,500 before Superleague came along?
Have you any idea of the crowds in the early 1970's? Soccer, RL and RU all have suffered the exact same grass roots playing decline......
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Player Coach | 2024 | No Team Selected |
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| If you're happy with your lot, and content that SL has a solid financial base for the future based on its current draw, and content to mock clubs who have a lower then average attendance, then fair enough.
Figures here, over the last 10 yrs or so (to 2019), look mostly like a downward trend to me:
[urlhttps://www.totalrl.com/up-or-down-an-in-depth-club-by-club-look-at-attendances-over-the-past-decade/[/url
The sport still, in my mind, remains marginalised and financially precarious, esp. for clubs devoid of a wealthy benefactor, and constant struggle for mainline sponsors, and I have little idea what benefit highlighting a "worst supported club" brings (noting someone will always be lowest attended).
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Club Captain | 268 | Warrington Wolves |
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| Quote shinymcshine="shinymcshine"
The sport still, in my mind, remains marginalised and financially precarious, esp. for clubs devoid of a wealthy benefactor, and constant struggle for mainline sponsors, and I have little idea what benefit highlighting a "worst supported club" brings (noting someone will always be lowest attended).'"
Well, it at least highlights the club that might need support or be expected to 'do better'.
As stated above, if the RL was a serious marketing machine*, some serious analysis such as 'x amount of people live within 30 minutes travelling distance of this ground, yet their crowds are very small' might be a helpful starting point. Resources and expertise could be directed to helping that club survive and prosper.
*We could always hope.
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Club Owner | 17566 | Hull FC |
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Mar 2004 | 21 years | |
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| Quote shinymcshine="shinymcshine"It shows how dead our sport is when some fans of successful clubs with over 100 yrs of history think their club is doing well supporter wise, when they 'boast' of having just 5k-10k more fans than some relatively fledgling clubs.
That Saints, Wigan and Leeds haven't made significant gains outside of their immediate areas shows the games inability to penetrate into any new fan base.'"
Wigan's decline in crowds this decade is baffling and very worrying. Constant success with a mixture of local academy prospects and exciting overseas players on the field but gates have dropped down massively. Earlier in the decade I thought this was due to Wigan Athletic but they have since dropped down to League1.
I think Saints and Leeds have hit a natural ceiling, Saints due to the size of the town and Leeds due to several rival RL clubs and a big football club to complete with.
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| Quote Tigerade="Tigerade"If you are going on population / attendance to calculate best and worst supported teams in SL then surely London are worst followed by Leeds. Best supported been Cas Tigers followed by Leigh.'"
Castleford are within the Wakefield metropolitain area, that's a 350,000 population, about 90-100,000 more than the city of Hull, Hull and urban area is about 500,000, Cas/wakey and Fev combined 14,900 average att. using 2019 numbers, that's 4257/100k, Hull FC+KR at 19,700m 3940/100k
things are not as simple as made out as others have said. History, geographical location, what else is happening re sport and social/leisure offerings, employment levels, even how accessible a stadium is for fans beyond walking distance.
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Club Captain | 268 | Warrington Wolves |
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| Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"Castleford are within the Wakefield metropolitain area, that's a 350,000 population, about 90-100,000 more than the city of Hull, Hull and urban area is about 500,000, Cas/wakey and Fev combined 14,900 average att. using 2019 numbers, that's 4257/100k, Hull FC+KR at 19,700m 3940/100k
'"
Indeed. The way the boroughs are designed (i.e. don't exactly fit the town) makes things very difficult.
Wigan metropolitan borough is 328,662.
Wigan's population is 103,608. The borough also includes Leigh, Ashton-in-Makerfield and other small towns.
Warrington borough is 210,014.
Warrington's population is 165,456. The town pretty much fits the borough (officially a 'unitary authority').
So which is actually the bigger town that should have the bigger attendances?
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Club Captain | 2534 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote davids="davids" As stated above, if the RL was a serious marketing machine*, some serious analysis such as 'x amount of people live within 30 minutes travelling distance of this ground, yet their crowds are very small' might be a helpful starting point. Resources and expertise could be directed to helping that club survive and prosper.
'"
The RFL is little more than Rimmer and a few staff.
I'd guess there is well over a Million people 30 minutes away from Wakefield Trinity in Barnsley, Rotherham and Sheffield??
Good luck to anyone trying to boost Trinity's crowds from that angle.
What Trinity need is a modern ground to boost local support. The modernisation of RL grounds was certainly the catalyst for improved attendances and higher income pro rata..
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| Quote shinymcshine="shinymcshine"[uIt shows how dead our sport is [/uwhen some fans of successful clubs with over 100 yrs of history think their club is doing well supporter wise, when they 'boast' of having just 5k-10k more fans than some relatively fledgling clubs. That Saints, Wigan and Leeds haven't made significant gains outside of their immediate areas shows the games inability to penetrate into any new fan base.'"
I dunno about this. In 2008 Leeds, Wigan Hull and Saints were the best supported clubs averaging 13,000 fans a game
The average a game for these four still dominant clubs eleven years later is 11,000.....
This was their average in the early 2000's
So the main drop off seems to be by new fans who were attracted to these big clubs in their new/modern/improved stadia but have lost interest despite these clubs continued success......
It's almost as if in the era of bigger and better stadiums more people were willing to go to watch the top clubs in their improved stadia, but somehow these additional fans have dropped off in recent years. Maybe ATEOTD they didn't care greatly for Rugby league, maybe it was some sort of era when it was fashionable to watch RL?
2003 we averaged 8,200 a game in Superleague
2019 we averages 8,200 a game in Superleague
If you think the sport is "dead" because of the current attendances, then it's no more dead than it was nearly 20 years ago. My guess is that the game became fashionable as Superleague progressed and stadia improved, but most of the "new fans" following the "glamour" clubs have over time peeled away........
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Club Captain | 268 | Warrington Wolves |
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| Quote Donnyman="Donnyman"The RFL is little more than Rimmer and a few staff.
I'd guess there is well over a Million people 30 minutes away from Wakefield Trinity in Barnsley, Rotherham and Sheffield??
Good luck to anyone trying to boost Trinity's crowds from that angle.
What Trinity need is a modern ground to boost local support. The modernisation of RL grounds was certainly the catalyst for improved attendances and higher income pro rata..'"
It does strike me as strange that Wakefield, a club with an impresssive history, don't get bigger crowds.
Like Warrington, there is no other significant local sports team, although I'm sure Leeds United have quite a few fans in Wakefield just as Liverpool and Man United have a lot in Warrington.
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Club Owner | 17566 | Hull FC |
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| Quote Donnyman="Donnyman"I dunno about this. In 2008 Leeds, Wigan Hull and Saints were the best supported clubs averaging 13,000 fans a game
The average a game for these four still dominant clubs eleven years later is 11,000.....
This was their average in the early 2000's
So the main drop off seems to be by new fans who were attracted to these big clubs in their new/modern/improved stadia but have lost interest despite these clubs continued success......
It's almost as if in the era of bigger and better stadiums more people were willing to go to watch the top clubs in their improved stadia, but somehow these additional fans have dropped off in recent years. Maybe ATEOTD they didn't care greatly for Rugby league, maybe it was some sort of era when it was fashionable to watch RL?
2003 we averaged 8,200 a game in Superleague
2019 we averages 8,200 a game in Superleague
If you think the sport is "dead" because of the current attendances, then it's no more dead than it was nearly 20 years ago. My guess is that the game became fashionable as Superleague progressed and stadia improved, but most of the "new fans" following the "glamour" clubs have over time peeled away........'"
It is true that the new stadiums at Hull, Wigan and Warrington provided a boost in the early 00s, but its important to note that in the late 00s they decided to play 4 Derby games a season and that gave a short term boost to crowds, for HullFC no other fixture comes close to the Derby as a crowd puller, it was also of course a year of a big financial crash (season tickets will have been bought in 2007)
In my view the constant format changes have pushed away casual fans. Over the years I've had to explain to people at work that the game tonight wasn't a playoff it was 'super8' game and it didn't matter because Hull were too far away to make the playoffs proper...response to that was blank looks. We've also had 'Clubcall' with teams picking their playoff opponent, a different playoff format almost every year, franchising and promotion and relaxation. People who were only half interested in the first place get switched off.
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Club Owner | 17566 | Hull FC |
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| Quote davids="davids"It does strike me as strange that Wakefield, a club with an impresssive history, don't get bigger crowds.
Like Warrington, there is no other significant local sports team, although I'm sure Leeds United have quite a few fans in Wakefield just as Liverpool and Man United have a lot in Warrington.'"
In Wakefield's case the facilities are a big turn off, its not even like other old grounds where the atmosphere is great on the old terraces so you put up with it, you get Wet and the sound leaks out and the steps are shallow so the view is poor. The club have also stuttered along facing financial disaster for years, until the latest owners have steadied the ship and to their credit they have performed well given the budget.
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