Why? Roby is one of the few genuinely world class players still in Super League - he's had a "quiet year" relative to usual, yet still had a hand in 24 of saints tries (5 tries 19 assists) compared to 18 Clark has had, made 1063 tackles, missing 31 compared to Clarks 685 tackles and 31 misses and made 2612 metres compared to Clarks 2637 metres. He is our only senior playmaker left, and has single handedly carried us at times.

Clark has had a great year no doubt, but he's not head and shoulders above Roby to so arrogantly assume he automatically gets in ahead of Roby...

Not much to split Robes and Clarke this year, and its good that theres competition for every place. From Saints, Roby and Makinson probably our only contenders. Amor would probably have walked in if he hadnt been out for a few months, he's been immense. Same for Walsh.

You have chosen those stats well, you didn't mention try's, tackle busts, average gain and clean breaks, all of which Clark is miles ahead. Roby is a great hooker, but Clark has been streets ahead of him and all other hookers this year. Should be Man of Steel IMO.

^ correct.

I mentioned tries combined with assists - creating tries is as important to spine players as scoring them - to which its 5:19 to Roby and 12:6 to Clark, Tackles and metres made, the 3 most important stats surely? If a prop makes a 50 metre break and does nothing else all game, is he better or worse than a prop who takes it in 10 times but only makes 5 metres per carry? Both are equal in stats, the fans are more drawn to the 1 spectacular run, and every coach would rather have a player who puts his hand up.

In essence, tackle busts, average gain and clean breaks are all built into the metres made (of which they are equal minus 20 metres) - its easier to look explosive when your doing half the work. There was no creative accounting of stats - just the stats all the rest feed into - I suppose errors (13:17) and penalties (4:11) could count in factoring as well...

1. Bowen
2. Makinson
3. Shenton
4. Gelling
5. Monaghan
6. Burns
7. Walsh/Smith
8. Hill
9. Clark
10. Peacock
11. Whitehead
12. Soliola
13. Westerman

Was a bit of a struggle for a centre other than Shenton, but Gelling has really developed at Wigan this year and gone from a bit of a joke player to a player who looks dangerous every time he gets ball and think he is the "best of the rest" for me.

Walsh has looked the classiest half back in SL when he has been fit, but think he may have missed too many games to be included. Behind him, Matty Smith has had a very good year at Wigan and should be partnering Widdop in halves for England at end of year (although this sadly wont happen with McBanana in charge)

1. Dorn
2. Makinson/Monaghan
3. Shenton
4. Moon
5. Burges/Carney
6. Burns
7. Walsh/Smith
8. Peacock
9. Clarke
10. Hill
11. Millington/Bateman
12. Soliola/Farrel
13. Westerman/Sinfield

Saints are top of the table with 3 fixtures left, but I'm struggling to think of anyone that demands a position.

Probably Makinson with his acrobatic finishing is the only one that I'd say is more likely than not.

I'd say him and Sia both deserve a place in there, he has pretty much carried our forward pack at times this season and cant think of many better back rowers than him in SL

All the stats are important and dont think you can group them, metres made is the same, but Clark makes far more metres per carry (about 10 compared to Roby 5), tackles busts are also important as it means defending players have to do more work, if Clark played the full 80 like Roby then his tackle, metres etc would be miles ahead. Clark this season has been much better than Roby and deserves his place in the dream team, even the last couple of Saints fans agree.

But you dont know that, he might not have been able to play the game he wants and thus suffered as a consequence (aka whats happened to Roby this year in most Saints fans eyes) making less than he has now.

Most Saints fans have been beaten into pessimism by years of GF appearances, I wouldnt use them as any judge



More importantly, the debate is between 2 quality english players - it can only bode well...

Fair enough, both should be in the England 17, only good for the game to have some competition in key positions.