Erm

Where has this quite bizzare claim that standards have dropped come from?

What single shred of evidence is there that the best have been lowered down?

If any of the salary cap denigrators can tell me why this is the case, then we can progress.

But go back and watch those old games, and remember, only one club is full time, thats why they look better. It isnt because they are better by any stretch of the imagination certainly not to me who has been watching the game for over 30 years.

Most of the problem might be completely removed if XBretKennyX and his ilk would actually admit that there were actually some very good players appearing for other teams (this applies to a lot of people in the other camp too)

I dare say admitting that their team isnt a "top" team any more might help as well.

The SC has had nothing like the effect on the game as a whole that RU turning pro did. That removed a huge source of outside backs from league (plus a more minor problem of some players lost to Union). If SL clubs had no cap, they'd still struggle to sign union backs given the disparity in income between the top union and league clubs and the profile union has. Cap or not, there's no way clubs would be signing up union stars as they used to.

When you look at GB's best outside backs over the past 30 years, a hell of a lot were from Union. I think that covered a lot of deficiencies which were actually there in terms of junior development.

In addition moving to summer rugby meant the loss of short-term signings from Aus (often the superstars who wouldn't sign full-time) and also the loss of chances for Brits to guest in Aus (possibly a bigger problem for GB). That was a move that had to happen though.

Add to that fact that Wigan fans are looking through cherry-rosed spectacles at an era when they were the only game in town for years, and the whole SC argument falls on its . How 'great' were games between lower placed sides during Wigan's dominance? No better than now I'd bet.

And you CANNOT ignore the near death of Leeds, Wigan and others as a direct result of misuse of funds when discussing the salary cap.

What is holding the game back in England now far more than the Salary Cap is a dependence on frankly very poor Aussies/Kiwis. And look to Wigan as the best example of that. Get rid of your 5 out of 7 overseas backs (if that figure doesn't make everyone shake their heads then nothing will) of whom not a single one is a star, and replace with two real top flight Aussies and youngsters, and I'd bet that Wigan would be no worse than they are now.

If your club chooses to spend cap money on the likes of Carmont, Phelps, Leuluai, Richards and Roberts, then I'm afraid you deserve mid-table mediocrity and to forever wonder why you don't win anything and why most games you watch are p*ss poor.

Unfortunately fans are as much to blame as coaches in this. I can actually understand a coach, who's job is almost permanently on the line, being conservative and saying 'bring in an Aussie' rather than take more risks with youngsters. That attitude will filter through the whole club, and make sure that junior development is not taken as seriously as it should be.

What's less forgiveable is us fans demanding instant success and complaining that our clubs aren't signing so-and-so from Australia. And before anyone asks, I've been watching Leeds for nearly 30 years, and have taken nearly as much enjoyment out of watching young British players succeed in the team as win the Championship. 2004 excepted.

Personally I'm not even refering to the Early 90s era. I think the standard has dropped from the early years of Super League.

Anyway I wasn't really arguing about that I was saying the cap should reward teams for bringing youngsters through their academy systems. They also rewarded players for loyalty to clubs.

Take Richie Myler for example. Salford have brought him through but he'll end up elsewhere - everyone knows that.

For me if a club bought him that club should have their cap squeezed less because of it. Every imported player both from home and abroad should see the cap tighten for every player.

Whereas when you bring kids through the cap would expand out giving you more freedom.

That way every club would have to find a good balance between local produced players and imports.

I've seen Wigan produce youngsters galore over the years but although we've kept some on and sent many to other clubs, an awful lot have been salary cap squeezed into the National Leagues and once they've gone their never seems a way back.

I fear we will be losing many more with the decision to reduce the lower grades to Under 20s aswell. We seemed to have been producing a few good potentials in the last 2-3 years but they've now decided to drop back to Under 20s rather than open age, which didn't work around 2003-2004-2005 an era that sees very few players play test rugby now. Or maybe I'm just not noticing?

If a player is a product of YOUR system then you shouldn't have to put him on the cap at all imo. Therefore Salford can pay Myler whatever they can afford and should Wire buy him they would have to put him on the cap and fit him in with the rest.

Secondly, your income should determine the cap imo. Yes SL has got closer recently but I personally don't think the quality is better. Clubs with no fans would need to bring them in in order to compete and we could then possibly see the game get bigger if they market it right.

Oh and just a point, Wigan didn't OVERSPEND. They spent exactly what they were meant too but just did it a different way that showed a loophole in the system. The RFL saw this and made an example of us with the pys deduction, hence the 2007 'credit note'

I don't buy into the argument that the SC has caused a drop in the over all standard of the league, although i do agree the standard has dropped (well sort of)

If you go back to the 1985 challenge cup final, i'm sure most would agree it was an excellent game, there were 2 subs and no rotation of subs. Forwards tired allowing the smaller faster players express their skills more easily. In todays game, with all teams full time pro and 4 subs with 12 replacements all teams are fitter, stronger and harder to brake down meaning the playmakers have less oppertunity to show off their skills so it would appear they have become less skillful. Not the case IMO.

RE the SC, i'm in favour. This year we will have a name on the cup which has not been there for a long time, that can only be good for the game. The recent rule changes which i am more excited about are this federation trained thing and the franchise system. Removing the threat of relegation, which in our sport meant a club pretty much had to go part time and all players contracts were null and void means clubs don't have to rely on ageing antipodeans and have the oppertunity to blood youth along with the federation and club trained thing which will force all clubs to bring through their own youth players leading to a reduction in foreigners combined with the SC ensuring that top players earning the top wages are spread throughout the league IMO leads to an excting future for our sport.

This of course will take a good few years until it beds in proporly but the future is bright.

Being a wiganer i do understand why some of us have a problem with the cap, at the end of the day we were on top before it's introduction and we are the club that has suffered most because of it. I don't expect any sympathey but i'm sure if it was your club in that position there would be a few of you who would feel the same way.

I look forward to the day when at the start of the season you genuinly can't predict who will finish top of the tree.

Maybe the top 3 sides aren't as chock full of superstars as they COULD be but then again the standard from that down to 12th is a hell of a lot higher than it would be otherwise.
At the end of the day the most successful teams are the ones who bring youngsters through, Leeds Saints and to a lesser effect Cas have gone from bottom to competitive on the back of some good youngsters.

I didn't agree with it some time ago but i'd like to see possibly any home grown players receive a 25% discount on the cap, nothing too drastic but it could possibly halt the breakup of champion teams which seems to happen a lot over in Aus. I'm all for everyone else having a go but they need to earn it.

Made me laugh

The SL is fantastic at the moment, look how close it has become. Just 5 years ago you'd have never dreamed of seeing Hudds and HKR 3rd and 4th. The salary cap is also working, take the challenge cup for example, there will be a new name on the cup this year which is great for the game. As for the game saturday, we blew you out of the water and if it wasn't for bad video refereeing it would have been 40 zip at half-time. Stop living in the past and look to the future as your team has a very bright one judging by the quality if youngsters you have.

The SC is working.......but just because it isn't working immediately, we get threads like this.

Since SL started and London Broncos were admitted, us southern RL fans have had to put up with "team full of Australians, not working, waste of time" arguments.
Now, 14 years on, we have thousands of kids playing the game, Internationals at under age level and 2 cockney England RL internationals. Even scouts from the hearland clubs are starting to look down here for talented RL players. London RL is a work in progress and will probably take another 10 years to really start baring fruit.

The point is, the SC will take at least another 6 or 7 years to completely level out the playing field, as will the Quota rules, but I would suspect that the Leeds/St Helens axis is close to being broken up and we will see at least 3 new teams in the GF over the next 5 years.

Lastly and this is only in my opinion, Wigan winning everything that they could afford did more damage to the game in this country than any salary cap, quota or franchise regulations ever could.
There is nothing more boring than looking at the premier league table and seeing the big 4.........and it needing some arab with a few billion to spare being the only chance of another team ever breaking through............

So who had five days in the "how long will it take XBrettKennyX to start a thread on how it's the fault of everybody else and especially the communist salary cap* that Wigan are trophyless for another year" sweepstake?


* with an extra bonus for anyone who predicted that he'd be so wound up at yet another Wigan loss that he'd confuse the salary cap (or SC) with the Challenge Cup (or CC)

In the last 6 years Saints have won one title, Bradford 2 and Leeds 3 - yet SL is a one horse Saints race?

Maybe you'd rather go back to pre-cap days and watch Saints win it more often.

you have to remember it is only the last 2 years when all clubs have been able to spend the same due to the previous 50% ruling. Over the next 5-10 years we will see the comp really even out and more clubs become reliant on their jnrs (who often clst less money than imported players)