If you look at the 2 sports from 1996, then you will see how far behind they have left us. They had no tv deal to speak of and their shop window was 4 weeks in spring for the 5 nations. We had a new deal. With sky and FTA covwrage of the challenge cup..... The likes of saracens struggled to get 5k to a rented stadium as did wasps..... They culled london scottish and richmond, 2 big clubs at the time and traditional powerhoses like. Coventry and bedford were ignored..... If you mention castleford ground sharing with wakey you get stonewalled..... Wasps now own a nice ground and sarries get 60k to. Wembley...... As for london,..... Sarries and quins are 2 of 12......the rest are scattered south west, midlands and north.... As for help????? They are as reliant on wealthy owners and tv deals as we are.... But they polish their turd far better than us, so yeah.... We have a lot to learn from them.

Again I don't really agree with respect. I don't believe the best marketeers in Rugby league (and OK there may not be many) are missing a trick that Rugby Union are playing that would work just as good for us. I had a long conversation with a poster who strongly believed we were and he claimed marketing credentials but in the end he could not specifically tell me what actual tricks we are missing.

I think we did a great job creating the magic weekend and the Grand final, and I think that of course inevitably impacted on Wembley, but created an overall net increase in numbers and profit yet people berate the game for the demise of the Wembley cup final and wonder why people no longer travel a 400 mile round trip to see one match mainly featuring the same few clubs who win it in a now second rate competition that mainly throws up mismatches. Again that leads to threads about how useless we are for not selling Wembley out, but I would not go now even if I had free tickets and free air travel from Robin Hood Airport, but I go to Magic and Old Trafford.

I know Union is a bit of a mirror to league North/south and both games are reliant on rich owners but beyond that Union are by far far the bigger, richer, more played and watched game with heavy grass roots all over the UK, It would really take a true qualified and experienced marketing person to explain whether size for size against union we are somehow missing a trick or two? I don't think we are because I as a fan know myself what attracts me to the game and what doesn't.

Sounds great. Here's to another 100 years of a tiny sport played in the North. Fantastic.

I'm a realist honed over half a century of avidly following the game. In those times we have made many attempts to make it a bigger sport and spread it out of the North. Beyond the fluff and nonsense of the "expansion" to France and the "American dream" lies a steady decline in people wanting to organise and play the game at it's roots. What keeps the game alive is it's traditions and it's heartlands support and goodwill. What can I say if you don't like the reality of the situation? It's just how it is - and we have to make the best of it unless you have a "growth" plan?

Let me hear it my friend, hopefully it will be "Fantastic"?

I think that you are being extremely disingenuous towards Richard Lewis.
When he took over as head poncho, the International game was absolutely dead and he and his team came up with a structured plan to take the game forwards.
Yes, it included Catalan, who IMO, along with Toulouse have been a success but, I believe it was Nigel Woods who thought/ thinks that we can have some kind of transatlantic sport.
Lewis recognised the importance of international competition and he was right, without games involving England, Australia, New Zealand, plus the "emerging" nations and IF you take out Catalan, we really are left with a game played along the M62 corridor.
You mention the success of Magic and the GF.
The GF is a great success, although it has killed the Challenge Cup final and whilst Magic is ok, it's slipped well back from the idea of spreading the game into new areas and growing the fan base. As an event, Magic should still be moved regularly and it should be a sell out.
When you compare magic, say, with Union staging club games at Twickenham, we (RL) are miles behind.
Sadly, RL still has mountains to climb into how we can engage new fans in non RL areas.
Much as I dont believe Toronto is anything like a decent fit in "our" comp, they have done superbly well to create the level of interest in N. America for what is a "new" sport and they should be applauded for that and we should be trying to tap into their expertise in how to market and promote the game, something that we have been mickey poor at for as long as I can remember.

Mate, I don't fully concede your first paragraph, but I will take your riposte square on the chin. Points all yours for a thoughtful reply.

However I won't take your second paragraph. What exact level of interest has RL got in North America since they started? They averaged 6,988 in the ground last year for the few games they actually played at home, and a good thousand were there for the beer festival only, plus a lot of free tickets. Wakefield (5,46icon_cool.gif get more paying interest than Toronto do and whilst TWP still have several thousand paying fans none will come here. Add to that this "superb" achievement has come at a cost of £5Million with the deficit set to double over the next two years to £10,000,000. .......... Is that the expertise we seek??....It's not is it?

Its interesting as historically Sky was part of the Murdoch empire via 20th Century Fox but was sold to Comcast for a large amount of money in 2018.

Talksport are part of Murdochs newscorp.

This could be a case of people leaking to their old pals at newscorp to help drive down the cost of RL.

Then again Comcast might want to rationalise their output, and concentrate on a few key sports.

Baseball season runs for roughly same period as RL, and they may deam it cheaper to just fill the space left by RL with Baseball matches.

I made a few bob over the years in the Marketing Game. I freely admit to it not being an exact science, but perseverance is part of it and alas, that's not something the guardians of the game in the UK are renowned for. I'll admit that not all of the examples below are 100% marketing, but you'lll get the drift, I am sure
Example #1
In 2009, Saracens hired Wembley. I have no idea of the cost of such a thing, but cheap, it wouldn't have been. 130,000 attended 3 games in that stadium that season....38k for one game the next year....84k the next year.......then back to 40k the next....they were averaging about 6,500 over these years, but they stuck at it.
Example #2
December 2008 and Quins rented Twickenham Stadium and attracted 50k to their "BIG GAME".....yes, it's Christmas and it's a jolly, but given the stoop held 12k at the time, that's pretty impressive all the same....80k this year by all accounts and the stoop still only holds 15k.....
Example #3
When London Broncos reverted to that name, Hughes sent MacKay out to look for a suitable stadium to call home. He visited a site that had a stand already delivered in flat pack form, that simply needed someone to agree to erect it and finish the project in return for a long lease...somewhere to call home. Instead we moved to Barnet and Sarries picked up their stadium at a fraction of the cost.
Example #4
Wasps buy Coventry, raise the capital cleverly and rent it to the RFL for a League game!.........

As I say, perseverance is key to these things.....but again, at the risk of repeating myself, Wakefield and Castleford merging is seen as a non-starter, not even sharing a stadium, so the potential remains untapped. The Harlequins Big Game could be replicated in a town like Manchester....July 22 2020 is the Government Day for the start of School Holidays in the UK.....Wigan v Salford is scheduled that weekend.....take it to City's ground and market the 'arris out of it to kids, schools, businesses, local amateur clubs and the entire city. "The Manchester Summer Bash" has a nice ring to it....get a local business to sponsor it..."The Co-op Manchester Summer Bash".....selling tickets for a tenner a pop, or as a reward for CO-OP shoppers?????? Think outside the box and think bigger....12,066 rattled around the DW last year for this fixture.......aim for 50k...make some noise and make some news.

Some good examples of the differences in attitudes in our games.

The final part includes a lack of knowledge the average RL fan has of the size of club Union the days. When you factor in the 10 Celtic sides, 2 Italian sides and 14 French clubs also, you see how dwarfed we really are.

And I can tell you now, regressing to a little Northern comp isn't going to be the answer. It'll be the beginning of the end.

This is, sadly, only too true.

I'd counter that plopping teams into random North American cities isn't either.

As much as the Troll in Chief, Jean prattles on about them, Toulouse would be a fine addition to SL. They have done the hard yards and would benefit from a couple of years "relegation free" as Catalans did, to cement themselves as a viable pathway for French Talent.

Toronto Wolfpack is the exact opposite of what we need. All TWP have has done is offer a wage to journeymen players and run a few fun-days with beer.....there is still little of any interest in Rugby League in Toronto and they have freely admitted that a separate TV deal or Player Development will not be happening in the near future.....so they deliver nothing other than a different ground to visit if you can swallow about a grand for a week away in Toronto.

Sadly, it's my belief that if SL do flog off some of the family silver to a VC company in January, you can be damned sure that Toronto (or Catalan for that matter) will not be receiving a cent. More likely, SL will shrink to 10 English Clubs, P&R will be put on hold for a decade and the game in the UK outside the top tier as well as France will suffer for it.

I doubt I could be ar$ed with a 10 team comp and the sheer repetitiveness it would entail, particularly if played out in half empty plastic grounds in northern towns. Toronto may not be the answer but they're far from being the biggest problem,

Ten teams doesn't float my boat either, and I can't see how it is commercially viable, it might work for Sky if they cover every game every week.

Whoops, you've done it again giving the guy the oxygen of a name check and the opportunity to reply to that and troll you again. Entirely up to you sir!!

Thanks for an interesting post but I'm not too much in agreement. Anyway the issue of a "viable pathway for french talent" was to me cemented by Les Catalans team in the academy, That came about what? 10 years after they started in 2006 with a remit to be French to bolster the French International side. But they never did bolster the french side and the the TEST matches we were chasing came but were a disaster and were abandoned years ago. The academy is now abandoned. As for their Superleague side look at the squad. If Casty and Yaha are unfit they can easily pick a full near first choice side with no French players in it and only the odd ones amongst the subs.

We were being told by Perez and all his apologists it'll take 15 years to see SL quality Canadian players coming through, yet the French ones are hardly coming through even though they have always had an established game and junior systems. Adding Toulouse won't increase the number of quality French players. Catalans already raid Toulouse for what they have.

Catalans have a team full of English and Aussies to be able to compete yet they don't at times compete well. What on earth are Toulouse going to do on promotion to be able to compete? If they play their championship side it will be slaughtered, if they follow Catalans then another dozen English players are off to France to form their team and another English club loses it's professional status.

Sadly and with a very heavy heart I conclude that factually a second club in France doubles the dependency on players from here and shoves an English pro team with a player development system into the Championship.?? Toulouse would be as damaging as TWP...... I know McManus trumpeted TO's cause but that was to avoid TWP, and since TWP got the shout it appears the french TV deal has gone. How do TO even afford SL with no rich owner and no TV deal either?

Toronto aren't the answer as they produce zero players and have no intention of changing that, they produce no TV money and cannot change that and they run up annual deficits into the $$Millions each year, as well as cause massive travel costs, and can't play half their home games at home, and won't bring fans here.

Apart from that they are "glamorous".

The biggest problem was pinpointed by Perez, we lack quality players and TV revenue. Hence he promised both but delivered neither and like mugs we fell for it and he's now lined up New York and Ottawa and still we don't call it out or chuck them out! Private investment was provided by TWP but not enough as their debts climb to £10,000,000.

The only place we really get the players in numbers is along the M62 and they are augmented by swallowing up every NRL cast off we can, so it's madness to try to bring in Canada, USA AND France who will all take players away from the M62. It's easy to be able to conclude what the answer isn't but the question is what IS the answer?

That has to be give the existing paying fans what they want until not enough want it anymore, then pack it in. OR perhaps admit we're beat and switch en-masse to Rugby Union. That ain't the daft idea it sounds - several clubs started to hedge their bets years ago - harlequins/Broncos. Leeds/Leeds RUFC with Wakefield/Wakefield RUFC and Wigan/Orrel also considered.