FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Crusaders Face Winding Up Order FROm HMRC |
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45011_1321315422.jpg This isn't a sleeping giant, it's a giant! Denis Betts Nov 2010
Twitter: @JoeyViking:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45011.jpg |
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| Quote: tb "It's probably a good job that that's not what happened then.'"
What has then?
All I read is... The club is run great now and all that debt was Samuel's fault from a previous administration, right or wrong?
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1357.jpg [b:34xc0vwf]Doubt everything, even this[/b:34xc0vwf]:1357.jpg |
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| I'm not talking about Crusaders. I'm talking about the reasons Widnes's 2008 bid was unsuccessful. To state that it "was rejected because of previous owner's debts" is simply a false description of the situation.
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This is why events unnerve me.: |
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| Quote: J20 "The problem is you can't issue Wakey, Cas, Salford etc with warning letters of franchise promises and yet on the other hand completely ignore other clubs faults. You can't reject Widnes SL bid due to previous owner debts (that had been paid in the take over) yet allow another club simply to wipe them away fully blaming the previous owner.'"
Just for the record - Steve O'Connor didn't pay off Stephen Vaughan's debts or at least not all of them. I believe he settled some liabilities to smaller traders as a gesture of goodwill but I doubt that he paid HMRC anything owed by the old club. Widnes Sport Ltd is a brand new company with no links to Widnes RLFC Ltd.
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Isn’t this just a case of history repeating itself?
Didn’t London do this a few years ago, change their name, wrote off the debts, and came back stronger, oh I forgot, that last bit is a load of tosh, and will be again.
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Club Owner | 3575 | No Team Selected |
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7368.jpg [img:35roalt8]http://www.wedding-wonderful.co.uk/img/back-low.jpg[/img:35roalt8]:7368.jpg |
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| Quote: J20 " however you they are also highly to blame for letting the debt fester i'm sure you'll agree? '"
Problem is J20, it doesn't look like the new owners were in the know about this liability..
This line is particularly telling.
Quote: J20 "They became aware of the problem when Government tax officials from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs sought relevant paperwork.
Read More
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Transparent Backgrounds/Waldorf.gif "As you travel through life don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
[url:2cg5oc2o]http://twitter.com/AndyGilder[/url:2cg5oc2o]
[url:2cg5oc2o]http://fromthewesternterrace.blogspot.co.uk[/url:2cg5oc2o]
This week: Four keys to a Rhinos win in the WCC:Transparent Backgrounds/Waldorf.gif |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "Isn’t this just a case of history repeating itself?
Didn’t London do this a few years ago, change their name, wrote off the debts, and came back stronger, oh I forgot, that last bit is a load of tosh, and will be again.'"
There's absolutely no evidence that going into admin, effectively wiping off large amounts of historic debt and then starting again does anything positive for any sporting organisation.
Yours
Ken Bates.
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36819_1328648313.jpg WELSH RUGBY LEAGUE - PRIDE & PASSION IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_36819.jpg |
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| Quote: J20 "I don't think their i smuch doubt that you will. Look at the wonders admin did for Widnes as a club. However maybe the extra cost of SL could be considered too much currently to set up with as well as get a decent side on the pitch?
Clearly the Crusaders did well off the pitch (& on) this season, however you they are also highly to blame for letting the debt fester i'm sure you'll agree? That needs to be cleared up before anything else can start otherwise all of expendeture the club made was just adding digits to the big -?'"
If the club was still in the state it was under Samuel I fully believe the RFL would let it go to the wall. The fact is I think the Wrexham lot have had a real go at it and it was like a completely different club from the off and continued to be so throughout the season.
We knew that they were tackling the CCJ's that were against the club and taking them one by one. They totalled £44,000 or so and the club were making progress in this regard. The tax bill has hit them with all the subtlety of a house brick to the face though and looks to be a knockout blow. I think the progress Wales have made in the past few years shows what can be achieved. I thought a lot of the debt had been wiped as the takeover happened previously but evidently not and some more debts seem to be rearing their ugly head all of the time. For peeople saying there are three clubs if this happens, it will be one club but two companies. The difference would be the slate would be wiped clean and the club would have a chance to show in the final season of this franchise whether we can stand on our own two feet. If we can't then kick us out of SL but if we can then I see no reason why we won't have proven we can be a valued member of SL. Taking into account last season until this tax bill and pension story broke it was viewed as a success. I fully believe next season will be if we come out the other side of this.
At the moment I'm so glad we are alive and evidently kicking with Wrexham Village wanting to keep Super League in North Wales. They could so easily have cut their losses and turned their back on league but they want it which is refreshing as a fan of the club.
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "There's absolutely no evidence that going into admin, effectively wiping off large amounts of historic debt and then starting again does anything positive for any sporting organisation.
Yours
Ken Bates.'"
You can’t seriously be comparing this situation to the one at the puffball club?
Why not try the one I have already mentioned, an expansion club in RL, a bit like London / Quins.
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Transparent Backgrounds/Waldorf.gif "As you travel through life don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
[url:2cg5oc2o]http://twitter.com/AndyGilder[/url:2cg5oc2o]
[url:2cg5oc2o]http://fromthewesternterrace.blogspot.co.uk[/url:2cg5oc2o]
This week: Four keys to a Rhinos win in the WCC:Transparent Backgrounds/Waldorf.gif |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "You can’t seriously be comparing this situation to the one at the puffball club?
Why not try the one I have already mentioned, an expansion club in RL, a bit like London / Quins.'"
Why not try the one you think suits your argument and ignore everything else you mean?
Hardly playing Devil's Advocate, is it?
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45011_1321315422.jpg This isn't a sleeping giant, it's a giant! Denis Betts Nov 2010
Twitter: @JoeyViking:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45011.jpg |
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| Quote: tb "I'm not talking about Crusaders. I'm talking about the reasons Widnes's 2008 bid was unsuccessful. To state that it "was rejected because of previous owner's debts" is simply a false description of the situation.'"
Widnes Vikings
The stadium is an appropriate size and well appointed following significant investment in recent years. The club has been in the difficult position of seeking to take into account the club’s historical attendance and playing records but naturally distancing itself from the previous regime’s financial record. The current company has only been in existence for a few months following insolvency in October 2007. Early indications are that under new ownership the club has made very good progress so far and has attracted good sponsors and the support of the local authority. The club has maintained a reasonable playing infrastructure despite being in the National League but this would require further investment to ensure that they could be competitive in Super League particularly within Club Trained rules.
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1357.jpg [b:34xc0vwf]Doubt everything, even this[/b:34xc0vwf]:1357.jpg |
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| Exactly.
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18686.jpg In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!:18686.jpg |
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "Why not try the one you think suits your argument and ignore everything else you mean?
Hardly playing Devil's Advocate, is it?'"
The only thing I’m ignoring is the comparison you’re making regarding a struggling Rugby League club, and a Football team.
Whereas I am comparing a Rugby team in an expansion area with, well, another Rugby League team, in an expansion area.
Devil’s Advocate, give me a break, it I could see any positives in this whole sorry situation I would.
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Black Backgrounds/Zoot.gif Freedom for supporters of the government, only for members of one party - however numerous they may be - is no freedom at all. freedom is always and exclusively for one who thinks differently.
Rosa Luxemburg, 'Die russiche Revolution'.:Black Backgrounds/Zoot.gif |
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| Quote: The Devil's Advocate "Isn’t this just a case of history repeating itself?
Didn’t London do this a few years ago, change their name, wrote off the debts, and came back stronger, oh I forgot, that last bit is a load of tosh, and will be again.'"
That's right (well, apart from the came back stronger bit) - and afterwards the RFL supposidly changed the rules so no-one could do it again.
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18399_1343936546.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_18399.jpg |
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| Quote: Chris B "There is the argument though that if the club had been able to operate on a clean slate as they believed then they wouldn't be in this mess at the moment.
This seems to be a problem related to the old regime haunting the new one.'"
Well unfortunately there was no clean slate. Otherwise it would have been even more of a shambles than it was. It makes no difference if 'Well we did OK this year so...' as the club was a continuation of Celtic Crusaders. Unfortunately we don't live in dream land where we can just brush things under the carpet and hope they don't come back to haunt you. Which is exactly what's happened here, if someone wants to come and pour money into the club to keep them going then fair enough. However I can't really see this happening unless there is some rich die hard Crusaders fan knocking about or failing that, the RFL could keep the club afloat purely on the basis of the expansion of RL.
The question is, is the club worth saving in its current state? That will be for Crusaders and the RFL to discuss. To me though, business wise, this is just not a viable venture as it stands. How far are we willing to go as a sport to 'expand'?
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icons077e_files/5885-54zedonite-msnicons.jpg regards
and ENJOY your sport
Leaguefan
"The Public wants what the Public gets" - Paul Weller:icons077e_files/5885-54zedonite-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: TFC "
The question is, is the club worth saving in its current state? That will be for Crusaders and the RFL to discuss. To me though, business wise, this is just not a viable venture as it stands. How far are we willing to go as a sport to 'expand'?'"
Sadly that applies to a lot of "professional clubs" not only in RL.
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