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FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > championship expansion |
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| Quote: Gahan "Bit early to tell yet'"
16 Years so far
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| Quote: Dico "The strong survive the weak dont and clubs come in their place.
Its the way it works, I dont see why we're so insistent on saving clubs if no one cares.'"
From a SL point of view we've lost clubs like Oldham, PSG, Gateshead, Sheffield who weren't good enough to survive and gained clubs like Catalans, Crusaders, reformed and better run Hudds and Hull, Sheffield found their level and we've welcomed back KR to the pro ranks.
The chp has gained SW Scorps and Toulouse and although you disagree with the latter you must believe SW Scorps will bring more to the table than someone like Blackpool who have fallen.
Its not been a roaring success if we're honest and we do need to introduce more teams to the semi pro ranks somehow, whether that be in Bramley or in Brighton, but if a semi pro club with 400 old farts watching overspends and goes to the wall then.. well.. maybe they shouldnt have been there in the first place. The strong survive, the weak dont.
FWIW I agree with whoever mentioned earlier about the 2 up 1 down and one semi pro team created as a slower means of expansion. The only issue might be by introducing say about 4 new sides, you're less likely to have one being flogged EVERY week
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| Quote: Starbug "16 Years so far'"
Catalan and Cru?
Was aiming my comment at them 2 rather than London, still 100 years to go to catch up then
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "better than our record where we havent done it.'"
Not much better
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| Quote: Dico "From a SL point of view we've lost clubs like Oldham, PSG, Gateshead, Sheffield who weren't good enough to survive and gained clubs like Catalans, Crusaders, reformed and better run Hudds and Hull, Sheffield found their level and we've welcomed back KR to the pro ranks.
The chp has gained SW Scorps and Toulouse and although you disagree with the latter you must believe SW Scorps will bring more to the table than someone like Blackpool who have fallen.
Its not been a roaring success if we're honest and we do need to introduce more teams to the semi pro ranks somehow, whether that be in Bramley or in Brighton, but if a semi pro club with 400 old farts watching overspends and goes to the wall then.. well.. maybe they shouldnt have been there in the first place. The strong survive, the weak dont.
FWIW I agree with whoever mentioned earlier about the 2 up 1 down and one semi pro team created as a slower means of expansion. The only issue might be by introducing say about 4 new sides, you're less likely to have one being flogged EVERY week'"
So actual ' New ' RL clubs , would be
Gateshead , bottom of Championship 1 basically playing amatuers
Sheffield , doing reasonably well in the Championship , but not produced much local playing talent to my knowledge [ I await being proved wrong ]
Crusaders , less said about them the better
SWS , early days , lot of potential , as long as they arent pushed too far too fast
Toulouse and Catalans existed before , so dont count
Not a massive ' expansion ' if you ask me
What worries me most about the new re structuring is if they make the ' criteria ' too difficult for some clubs to bridge between the Championships it will take away the incentive for what few fans some clubs have left
In their desperation to bring in new clubs they will spread the money available too thin reducing the likelyhood of those clubs being able to build
They will take away the highly competitive element of ' The ' Championship once again removing the ' edge ' that is the last bit of incentive left
The structure at the moment is fine , keep what we have , keep P and R between the 2 divisions , find and properly finance a new club every 2/3 years , provide both funds and support to market the comps and the clubs at ground level [ to bring in local support ie fans ]and find ways of bringing in external funding collectively for all the clubs
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "well no wonder you are confusing everyone......'"
.... or just you?
Quote: SmokeyTA "Yes, it sounds ridiculous because Bramley especially, do everything they can to be an independent Bramley. If the people involved in Bramley wanted to be an SL club, then they would be involved in Leeds, or have merged in 99.
There are a million and one problems with a Bramley and Hunslet merger, which until they are overcome wouldnt move the clubs forward one bit. This is why it would be, at this stage, a bad idea, a very unlikely idea, and as such a completely pointless example.'"
I take it you are a Bramley supporter or have a soft spot for them and feel indignant at my suggestion. Its interesting that you did not leap to the defence of Workington when a poster mentioned their potential merger with Whitehaven.
Quote: SmokeyTA "i didnt quote any part of your post whatsoever. As i said i didnt attribute it to you, and other people had used the same comparison.
Why is it relevant. This is the question i keep asking you and you keep ignoring'"
This is the first usage of Hunslet/Bramley posted by meThe problem with a merger is that the stronger club tries to retain its identity, ie Hull/Gateshead, Huddersfield/Sheffield.
What would happen if say Hunslet and Bramley merged but played out of the South Leeds stadium?'"
I made this response after reading a poster called Marto, who I do not know but believe is a Bramley fan. He was discussing the problem with mergerswell as long as everyone's happy their club executives are strong enough to turn down double funding for up to three years then that's okay then!
i'm sure they'll be the first to complain when it actually happens and realise they could have at the very least tried to do something about it when the proposals were at the consultation stage.'"
I was agreeing with his point of view, used a recent historical example of where "mergers" have resulted in loss of identity to the weaker team and put forward a scenario that might actually affect him.
You have become so wrapped up in getting me to justify one line of what I said that you have lost sight of why it was said and the context it was said in.
Will you now answer my question that you keep ignoring? Was there a point in time where the Huddersfield / Sheffield merger seemed " ridiculously unlikely".
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| Quote: Starbug "Not much better
a massive amount better i think you will find. Considering we have managed in 90+ years one whole team (the skolars) making the jump to semi-pro, and 0 to pro. Where as Crusaders, Quins, Les Catalans, Gateshead, Sheffield, SWS, for all their faults, are better than not existing at all
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| Quote: Dreamer ".... or just you?
I take it you are a Bramley supporter or have a soft spot for them and feel indignant at my suggestion. Its interesting that you did not leap to the defence of Workington when a poster mentioned their potential merger with Whitehaven.'" Im not a Bramley supporter, and feel no greater soft-spot for them than any other side (except of course my team), Im not indignant at you suggesting they merge, just feel it silly that you mention them as a possibility of merger, only to argue against it, when everybody im sure, even yourself will agree, there isnt much call for a merger between Bramley and Hunslet.
You have brought up an example, nobody, including yourself believes should happen at this stage, then argued against it. Why?
And I infact brought up a merger between Cumbrian sides. There is an argument, whether you agree with it or not, that says the Cumbrian sides MAY be better to merge, take double funding, and build towards a Cumbrian SL side. This isnt something which is applicable to a merger between Hunslet and Bramley, which wouldnt give us anything at all.
Quote: Dreamer "
This is the first usage of Hunslet/Bramley posted by me
thats nice, and it is among other uses of the same thing. It seems utterly ridiculous that you are attributing my comments as being in response to yours, only then to get all uppety about my comments being in response to yours.
Quote: Dreamer "I made this response after reading a poster called Marto, who I do not know but believe is a Bramley fan. He was discussing the problem with mergers
And i will ask you again, why is a possible Bramley/Hunslet merger a relevant example of mergers resulting in the loss of identity to the weaker team?
Nobody has proposed these two merge, there are many many different reasons why they shouldnt, and it isnt likely to happen. So what you have done is exactly what i said. Picked out a pointless and unlikely example (bramley/hunslet), argued against it(in this case mergers), but not mentioned how unlikely it is(in this case you have specifically made arguments that is likely) and are now arguing that you have argued against the context (mergers) when you havent. You have simply pointed out why it would be a bad idea to to something nobody proposed because it is clearly a bad idea.
Quote: Dreamer "Will you now answer my question that you keep ignoring? Was there a point in time where the Huddersfield / Sheffield merger seemed " ridiculously unlikely".'" I certainly will, when you explain what relevance it is. Other than for you to do the same thing I have accused you of then get all indignant because I pointed it out.
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| Quote: Dreamer "It's nice to see that you (wiganermike) have put forward a thought through argument, unlike some of the "keyboard warriors".
You say that Oldham dominated CH1 last season - were they promoted? Did they deserve promotion. Will they deserve promotion this year, or next year? Do they deserve promotion "on Paper"? Clubs in the championship fluctuate dramatically. Those who are strong one year are not always strong the next. The point is that if Hunslet have a bad season they may really suffer next year and no longer be the dominant side that you suggest.'"
Dont usually post but thought id add my two pence, as an Oldham fan i dont think we have a god given right to be established in a new Championship if that is the case.
But i feel now we finally have our own ground ( i realize it needs alot of work) and are finally making a profit to balance the books after 8 venues for ''home games'' in 12 years, we have a basis to grow into a club which has a respectable ability to host rugby league at a higher level once again.
The fact we managed an average of a 1000 spectators at most games in a ground which had very little in the way of facilities which was the highest in championship one last year, says alot about our core support and also with your argument about clubs fluctuating, over recent years Oldham are a steady bet to be there or there about at the end of the year, we just cant handle play off finals
But were not the only teams in decent position in Champ 1 so god knows what will come of these changes, some attitudes on this board from those who's clubs arent at risk seem a tad harsh.
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "A lot.'"
If I took your first post to be a dig at me and it wasn't, then that's my mistake. Nevertheless, I have already explained what my first post was and why it was written. If you don't want to take it for what it is, in context to the posts before it then thats up to you.
First line of my original postThe problem with a merger is that the stronger club tries to retain its identity, ie Hull/Gateshead, Huddersfield/Sheffield.'"
[iie Hull and Huddersfield pocketed some cash, kept their name, identity and some players and staved off possible financial problems. [/i
Second line of my original postWhat would happen if say Hunslet and Bramley merged but played out of the South Leeds stadium?'"
Note, I did not say they should merge, I did not say they will merge. I could have used other clubs as an example, but I used these two because they were relevant to one of the previous posters and because there are some potential circumstances where it may seem attractive. The logical assumption from what has actually happened in these situations is that Hunslet would come out on top.
You said it was "ridiculously unlikely" and I gave some reasons to the contrary and also pointed out that the prospect of money and power can change minds. I also said that there was a point in time when Sheffield fans would have considered their merger as "ridiculously unlikely" as Bramley would but time told a different story.
Re a Cumbrian merger - I agree that it seems logical to an outsider but try telling a Cumbrian. There are as many problems with this as a Hunslet/Bramley merger.
Oh, and I don't believe I got uppity, I'll leave that to you.
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| As a supporter of a CC1 club can i just say how much i appreciate SL fans telling us what we should and shouldn't be doing. Lets merge some SL teams as an example to us all.
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Quote: Sheffieldliam "The RFL have put forward proposals to restructure the championship and championship one. Article here:
Is that article about this www.therfl.co.uk/news/article/21026
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Quote: Sheffieldliam "The RFL have put forward proposals to restructure the championship and championship one. Article here:
Is that article about this www.therfl.co.uk/news/article/21026
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| Quote: JENKY "Is that article about this
effectivley, yes...the RFL and Community Board are looking to restructure the game to a four tier structure. this thread is only focussed on the upper bits though - there are threads on the amateur forum about impact lower down. don't think many fans realise this will have impacts right down to the bottom reaches of amateur rugby
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| Quote: mackin89 "Dont usually post but thought id add my two pence, as an Oldham fan i dont think we have a god given right to be established in a new Championship if that is the case.
But i feel now we finally have our own ground ( i realize it needs alot of work) and are finally making a profit to balance the books after 8 venues for ''home games'' in 12 years, we have a basis to grow into a club which has a respectable ability to host rugby league at a higher level once again.
The fact we managed an average of a 1000 spectators at most games in a ground which had very little in the way of facilities which was the highest in championship one last year, says alot about our core support and also with your argument about clubs fluctuating, over recent years Oldham are a steady bet to be there or there about at the end of the year, we just cant handle play off finals
i don't think we have to worry about not being placed in the new championship...
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The RFL intends to further expand the Co-operative Championships during this period and the initial deadline for Expression of Interest submissions from clubs is 12pm on April 11.
The RFL’s Chief Operating Officer, Ralph Rimmer said: “These are truly exciting times for the sport and any club that is deemed suitable for entry will receive full support from the RFL to help make this a success.
“A club may consider themselves ready to enter in 2012 however others may wish to work towards entry in a few years time, 2013, 2014 or 2015; we want all of these to register their interest.
“There can be no promises made to any clubs at present but we want to test the waters and see what’s out there. After working with all the submissions we’ll be in a better position this summer to ascertain whether there are any new clubs ready for entry in 2012 and what further additions could potentially be made over the following years.
“The Co-operative Championships is a fantastic competition which was seen by 1.5 million TV viewers in 2010. The clubs are also involved in two high profile cup competitions in the Northern Rail Cup and Carnegie Challenge Cup.
“The current 21 clubs in the Championships consist of founder members of the sport with a rich heritage such as Leigh, Oldham and Batley as well as relatively recent additions from Gateshead, London and South Wales.
“There are a number of great facilities such as Leigh Sports Village and the Stobart Stadium Halton and clubs have credible attendances, with eight clubs posting at least one home gate over 2000 last season.”
The Co-operative Championships is a semi professional Rugby League competition for clubs in the leagues directly below Super League. It consists of two divisions called the Championship and Championship One with annual promotion and relegation between the two.
Full time staff are in place at each club who receive annual financial support from the RFL and every player is contracted and paid accordingly.
A salary cap is in place for both divisions and all clubs have to pass minimum facility standards which include having more than 200 seats (more than 500 required in the Championship) and have an enclosed ground with floodlights. These standards are set to rise in 2015 as it’s recognised the majority of clubs compete in stadia well in excess of minimum standards.
Clubs are asked to register their Expression of Interest by April 11 with an email to Chris Thair in the RFL Club Support unit
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The RFL intends to further expand the Co-operative Championships during this period and the initial deadline for Expression of Interest submissions from clubs is 12pm on April 11.
The RFL’s Chief Operating Officer, Ralph Rimmer said: “These are truly exciting times for the sport and any club that is deemed suitable for entry will receive full support from the RFL to help make this a success.
“A club may consider themselves ready to enter in 2012 however others may wish to work towards entry in a few years time, 2013, 2014 or 2015; we want all of these to register their interest.
“There can be no promises made to any clubs at present but we want to test the waters and see what’s out there. After working with all the submissions we’ll be in a better position this summer to ascertain whether there are any new clubs ready for entry in 2012 and what further additions could potentially be made over the following years.
“The Co-operative Championships is a fantastic competition which was seen by 1.5 million TV viewers in 2010. The clubs are also involved in two high profile cup competitions in the Northern Rail Cup and Carnegie Challenge Cup.
“The current 21 clubs in the Championships consist of founder members of the sport with a rich heritage such as Leigh, Oldham and Batley as well as relatively recent additions from Gateshead, London and South Wales.
“There are a number of great facilities such as Leigh Sports Village and the Stobart Stadium Halton and clubs have credible attendances, with eight clubs posting at least one home gate over 2000 last season.”
The Co-operative Championships is a semi professional Rugby League competition for clubs in the leagues directly below Super League. It consists of two divisions called the Championship and Championship One with annual promotion and relegation between the two.
Full time staff are in place at each club who receive annual financial support from the RFL and every player is contracted and paid accordingly.
A salary cap is in place for both divisions and all clubs have to pass minimum facility standards which include having more than 200 seats (more than 500 required in the Championship) and have an enclosed ground with floodlights. These standards are set to rise in 2015 as it’s recognised the majority of clubs compete in stadia well in excess of minimum standards.
Clubs are asked to register their Expression of Interest by April 11 with an email to Chris Thair in the RFL Club Support unit
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Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1 | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
Wigan |
29 |
768 |
338 |
430 |
48 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Hull KR |
29 |
731 |
344 |
387 |
44 |
Warrington |
29 |
769 |
351 |
418 |
42 |
Leigh |
29 |
580 |
442 |
138 |
33 |
Salford |
28 |
556 |
561 |
-5 |
32 |
St.Helens |
28 |
618 |
411 |
207 |
30 |
|
Catalans |
27 |
475 |
427 |
48 |
30 |
Leeds |
27 |
530 |
488 |
42 |
28 |
Huddersfield |
27 |
468 |
658 |
-190 |
20 |
Castleford |
27 |
425 |
735 |
-310 |
15 |
Hull FC |
27 |
328 |
894 |
-566 |
6 |
LondonB |
27 |
317 |
916 |
-599 |
6 |
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1 | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
Wakefield |
27 |
1032 |
275 |
757 |
52 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Toulouse |
26 |
765 |
388 |
377 |
37 |
Bradford |
28 |
723 |
420 |
303 |
36 |
York |
29 |
695 |
501 |
194 |
32 |
Widnes |
27 |
561 |
502 |
59 |
29 |
Featherstone |
27 |
634 |
525 |
109 |
28 |
|
Sheffield |
26 |
626 |
526 |
100 |
28 |
Doncaster |
26 |
498 |
619 |
-121 |
25 |
Halifax |
26 |
509 |
650 |
-141 |
22 |
Batley |
26 |
422 |
591 |
-169 |
22 |
Swinton |
28 |
484 |
676 |
-192 |
20 |
Barrow |
25 |
442 |
720 |
-278 |
19 |
Whitehaven |
25 |
437 |
826 |
-389 |
18 |
Dewsbury |
27 |
348 |
879 |
-531 |
4 |
Hunslet |
1 |
6 |
10 |
-4 |
0 |
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