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Quote: gutterfax "Really? What part of my maths is wrong?
1.7 million from owner
600k from sky
300k from sponsor
6500 season tickets
8750 average
London and Catalan being poor draw cards
200k loan from council
Missed wages payment

Bradford will turn over close to 5 million this year including 1.7 million from an owner who said his total expected investment was 2 million. Next year, if they miss the 10k st target, they are in a massive hole again....... Does the owner have another 1.7 million he can refinance!'"


Sponsor money from small sponsors (Eg pitch boards, programme adverts, smaller shirt sponsors)
Programme sales
Food sales
Merchandise sales
Lottery
Game draw
Income from bar
Income from exec boxes
Income from function rooms

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Quote: gutterfax "Really...you want to keep digging by hitting the pedant button? '"

I don't have one, and in your case, I don't need one.

Quote: gutterfax "I never suggested that the bulls aspire to cash flow issues and no matter of wriggling on the hook is going to make it any different. '"

Well stop wriggling, then! We can all see you swerved any attempt to explain what else you might possibly have meant. I know you can't, but you could at least have had a stab, it would be funnier. Oh well. We'll have to make do with seeing you get your arrse handed to you on a plate by Smokey and Bullmania, for now.
c020.gif

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Quote: gutterfax "So you don't the validity of my assertion even though I have pointed out that if I was 75% wrong (I ain't by the way) it just doesn't add up?
It's a long river in Egypt pal!'"


As I said, your figures do not look good. But I also said as you don't have access to all Bradford's incomings and outgoings, your figures are skewed in favour of the argument you're putting across. It's not denial to say that you are not in possession of all the facts, even though you put yourself and your figures forward as though you do.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "you don’t know how much they take from renting out the stadiums for weddings for instance'"


Who the hell would want to get married in the crater (or hold their party there)?

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For the benefit of Smokey, Bullmania and Ferocious A.....I will list the known income of Bradford in regards to 2013. I appreciate that the income figures will not be complete, but I will return to this little detail later**.
SKY TV cash £600,000
Initial Investment from OK £840,000
Council loan £200,000
1 Years sponsorship from Provident £300,000
6,500 ST (20% kids/10% concessions 50/50 terrace/provident) £1,088,100.
2,297 walk up fans per game x 10 (20% kids/10% concessions 50/50 terrace/provident) £459,955
Second investment from Mr Khan £900,000
Running total to date £3,488,055.

Now, the stuff we don't know for sure.......but using the split in fans I have above, then the average cost for a walk up fan is £20.02 a pop.

I have no idea how much a program, pie, coffee, pint, tea etc costs at the club but I would say it's safe to say that £5 a visit isn't too much to expect....so there's another £439,870 in income there.

The club shop.......again, an exact figure is tough to come by, but let's say that 10% of ST holders purchase £120 worth of gear, 30% £60 of gear and 20% spend £40. Of the walk ups, let's say 10% spend £20....£300,000 or there abouts.

Remember, that's 30% of ST holders not spending a penny in the shop and 80% of casuals/away supporters......but I am being generous here.

Running total, £4,230,000 rounded up.

3 home games to go....I'll be generous and say all ST holders and another 6,891 walk ups, to keep the seasons average attendance....this adds £138,000 in ticket revenue, £132,000 in pie, ale and programme revenue and £94,000 in the shop...although the shop revenue would normally be stacked to the start of the season.

Now, if we take the other unknowns such as venue hire, minor sponsors, corporate revenue et al and call them figure "x" then the approximate turn over of the Bradford bulls in 2013 is £4,600,000 and figure "X"** Combined!

Known and projected income for 2014 is as follows.
SKY TV cash £600,000
ST target 10,000 (same splits as above) £1,674,000
Provident Sponsorship £300,000
Walk up ticket revenue (based on 2,300) £598,598.
Shop Spend (as above)£440,000
Pie and ale spend £799,500
Figure "X"**

Total projected revenue figure for 2014 £4,412,098 and "X"**........

Now, I have allowed for 2,300 walk up fans, as well as a 35% increase in ST sales at this years prices but used the same figures for both years.....

No club has ever increased their average attendances by more than 15% in a year unless they offered heavily discounted tickets....Bradford need to increase theirs by over 35% at full price to generate the same revenue in 2014 as 2013.

As I said earlier, I don't expect Bradford to "not be there" or to fold, but the maths as they stand do not make pretty reading.
If my figures are out 20% for 2013 then they are also out for 2014...the resultant shortfall is still the same.

Good luck to Bradford and their fans for 2014....

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Quote: Diavolo Rosso "Who the hell would want to get married in the crater (or hold their party there)?'"


Oh, the people who book it as their chosen venue, I should imagine.

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Quote: Diavolo Rosso "Who the hell would want to get married in the crater (or hold their party there)?'"

It's an 'iconic' crater though.

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And the weddings are held in the Coral Stand. Not out on the pitch.

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Gutterfax, the income from Sponsorship, Season Tickets, Walk up admissions, Club Merchandise, Matchday catering and drinks is all subject to VAT. You'd therefore need to divide by 1.2 to reduce these accordingly to reflect the net income after stripping out the VAT which doesn't belong to the club.

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Quote: gutterfax "For the benefit of Smokey, Bullmania and Ferocious A.....I will list the known income of Bradford in regards to 2013. I appreciate that the income figures will not be complete, but I will return to this little detail later**.
SKY TV cash £600,000
Initial Investment from OK £840,000
Council loan £200,000
1 Years sponsorship from Provident £300,000
6,500 ST (20% kids/10% concessions 50/50 terrace/provident) £1,088,100.
2,297 walk up fans per game x 10 (20% kids/10% concessions 50/50 terrace/provident) £459,955
Second investment from Mr Khan £900,000
Running total to date £3,488,055.

Now, the stuff we don't know for sure.......but using the split in fans I have above, then the average cost for a walk up fan is £20.02 a pop.

I have no idea how much a program, pie, coffee, pint, tea etc costs at the club but I would say it's safe to say that £5 a visit isn't too much to expect....so there's another £439,870 in income there.

The club shop.......again, an exact figure is tough to come by, but let's say that 10% of ST holders purchase £120 worth of gear, 30% £60 of gear and 20% spend £40. Of the walk ups, let's say 10% spend £20....£300,000 or there abouts.

Remember, that's 30% of ST holders not spending a penny in the shop and 80% of casuals/away supporters......but I am being generous here.

Running total, £4,230,000 rounded up.

3 home games to go....I'll be generous and say all ST holders and another 6,891 walk ups, to keep the seasons average attendance....this adds £138,000 in ticket revenue, £132,000 in pie, ale and programme revenue and £94,000 in the shop...although the shop revenue would normally be stacked to the start of the season.

Now, if we take the other unknowns such as venue hire, minor sponsors, corporate revenue et al and call them figure "x" then the approximate turn over of the Bradford bulls in 2013 is £4,600,000 and figure "X"** Combined!

Known and projected income for 2014 is as follows.
SKY TV cash £600,000
ST target 10,000 (same splits as above) £1,674,000
Provident Sponsorship £300,000
Walk up ticket revenue (based on 2,300) £598,598.
Shop Spend (as above)£440,000
Pie and ale spend £799,500
Figure "X"**

Total projected revenue figure for 2014 £4,412,098 and "X"**........

Now, I have allowed for 2,300 walk up fans, as well as a 35% increase in ST sales at this years prices but used the same figures for both years.....

No club has ever increased their average attendances by more than 15% in a year unless they offered heavily discounted tickets....Bradford need to increase theirs by over 35% at full price to generate the same revenue in 2014 as 2013.

As I said earlier, I don't expect Bradford to "not be there" or to fold, but the maths as they stand do not make pretty reading.'"

That’s lovely, Still wrong and still missing plenty, and still speculating, and still utterly useless but lovely all the same. Ill point out the most obvious flaw in your workings. Its one I have pointed out to you before. The £900k investment from Omar Kahn covers this year and next. Not this year. It isn’t a difference in investment between this year and next, it is an investment which covers BOTH this year and next.
Quote: gutterfax "
If my figures are out 20% for 2013 then they are also out for 2014...the resultant shortfall is still the same.

Good luck to Bradford and their fans for 2014....'"
That’s just incorrect. There is nothing to say that your predictions are out by the same amount, income amounts can be different between the two years so your guesses can be out by differing amounts. They may even be out in different ways. You may be 50% under for 2013 and 50% over for 2014.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "That’s lovely, Still wrong and still missing plenty, and still speculating, and still utterly useless but lovely all the same. Ill point out the most obvious flaw in your workings. Its one I have pointed out to you before. The £900k investment from Omar Kahn covers this year and next. Not this year. It isn’t a difference in investment between this year and next, it is an investment which covers BOTH this year and next.
'"



Its difficult to see how that can be the case when it has already been disclosed that he has put in £840k this year already plus a £200k+ loan from the council and they still have a significant cash shortfall. Unless other income increases significantly, or costs are cut, then this reported £900k isn't going to cover the deficit all things being equal.

mat
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The 840k isn't just for this year though. It's from when he took over last August. Wages from then til start of this season takes 600k of it and it also covers purchase price of club,150k, and refurbishment of corporate stand.

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Quote: Derwent "Its difficult to see how that can be the case when it has already been disclosed that he has put in £840k this year already plus a £200k+ loan from the council and they still have a significant cash shortfall. Unless other income increases significantly, or costs are cut, then this reported £900k isn't going to cover the deficit all things being equal.'"

That £900k isn’t to cover the £840k he has already put in. Its in addition. It’s a £1.7m investment over two years. Not a £1.7m investment in year one, leaving a shortfall year 2. Also, the important thing is, all things aren’t equal. Your first year always has some additional start up costs.

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Quote: Derwent "Gutterfax, the income from Sponsorship, Season Tickets, Walk up admissions, Club Merchandise, Matchday catering and drinks is all subject to VAT. You'd therefore need to divide by 1.2 to reduce these accordingly to reflect the net income after stripping out the VAT which doesn't belong to the club.'"


Strip it out, spend it and keep quiet icon_smile.gif

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lol, like anyone knows what a clubs income is! Good guesswork though, about as credible as me guessing what Warrington spend on players salaries!

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