You’ll find that I condemned Kelly’s behaviour and thought he got off lightly. I do not, and never have, condoned verbal abuse.
However, there is indeed a clear line between verbal abuse and physical abuse. Neither is acceptable, but there is a clear difference in my view.

He is to blame for the physical contact. He’s somewhere he knows he shouldn’t be, using his physical presence to intimidate the bar staff.
Your view that the bar staff are to blame for his abusive behaviour because they asked him to leave and didn’t just accept his behaviour is bizarre. And very wrong.

I will apologise for my post and take back what I said as I misread it. You stated he went past verbal, to physical and I misread. Apologies.

Regards

King James

I’m not saying he isn’t to blame and I agree that the woman is well within her rights to push him back but to shout when he’s clearly not touching her was wrong. I’m also not blaming them for his abusive behaviour but they certainly antagonised him deliberately, knowing who both of them are. I can’t understand why she felt the need to stand with a phone recording him when there’s cctv. Also the comments made didn’t help either like ‘it’s not my career that will be ruined’, ‘weirdo’ and whispering about Sam as well. They aren’t the sort of things you would say if you felt so scared.

In summary, I think they’ve refused to serve Joel which he hasn’t liked. He’s then kicked off and been abusive which is obviously out of order. Clearly they know who they both are and are annoyed with them and have used Joel’s aggressive behaviour to make him look as bad as possible by looking for a reaction. Those two idiots coming over shouting at Joel didn’t help either. That’s why, for me, nothing more should be made of it than an apology. The woman filming also out of order.

CCTV won't pick up what's being said and considering filming it got Sam to shut up pretty quickly it had a good effect on things. If she hadn't I could see things being worse.

To me it looked planned. Joel Tomkins spoke about something happening before the video but was cut off very quickly. His hands are by his side when the girl screams at him to get off (she actually pushes him first whilst telling him to get off). I can’t see any contact. Also the other barmaid is smirking at the girl with the phone, she knows the phone is there even though the girl was trying to hide it because she looks at it.

I think they saw how p*ssed they both were, wound them up, started videoing when the abuse came in and then there’s a story about it. Joel Tomkins is in the wrong with the abuse but I think the girl knew what she was doing in the first place.

In that case then, after been refused at the bar they should have walked away instead of kicking off and likely scaring the two women bar staff and that would have been the end of it. But no they carry on and even try getting behind the bar! Only two people who are out of order here and that’s the Tomkins brothers. Being in the limelight in Wigan and young kids role models, they should have known better.

I don't think it was planned if they'd have left when asked (and they were asked a number of times) then there wouldn't have been a problem

I don’t blame them for filming. It’s a pretty effective way of de-escalating a situation, as most people realise that if they behave inappropriately it will be recorded. Of course, CCTV doesn’t usually have audio, so will look very similar to a day-to-day conversation.

He's a 'large man' and nobody in that pub wasn't going to stop him behaving the way he did, and he knew it.
Pity there wasn't a few doormen around to 'chuck him out'. Hull awarded Kelly's 'foul mouthed' rant with a new contract, so maybe ugly Joel will be appointed Wigan's captain for the 2019 season !

Yes, of course. Those conniving barmaids are going to work every day just waiting to snare unsuspecting rugby players.

Why would you need to pick up what’s being said when it’s just drunken insults, unless your planning on making them look as bad as possible and then using it against them. At no point does either of them look physically threatening and it didn’t shut Joel up and wound him up even more. If you’re that scared you don’t stand there filming them and engage in conversation. They knew exactly what they were doing and I don’t feel sorry for them at all.

Of course they should have but the bar staff deliberately try and wind Joel up to get a reaction out of him knowing that he was ed.

Does the woman claim to be scared? What would you want them to do instead of engage in conversation? Physically throw out two rugby players bigger than them? Walk away from the bar they work at? And yes picking up what's said is important, watch that video on mute and they could be talking about anything.

I think Joel going behind the bar is physically intimidating. The bar staff repeatedly ask them to leave, which suggests they may be scared and feel intimidated. However, you can’t simply decide how someone feels based on their actions. Just because they don’t look terrified (in your view), it doesn’t mean they weren’t.