Junior Rugby is not vibrant in Bradford at all. what there is of it is mainly in south Bradford. It's laughable you think Junior rugby is vibrant in Cumbria. The Cumbria JARL has to double up age groups to manage to make leagues and they are tiny. The numbers of Cumrian players making professional is at an all time low and the lads still playing pro are on the fringes. Junior Rugby league in Rochdale is vibrant? really?? It just isn't. Name me the Rochdale born RL stars - go back as long as you like.

As for Widnes do you remember when they churned out Tony Myler, Andy Currier, Keith Elwell, Richie Eyres, Steve and Mike O'Neil, stuart spruce, Paul and David hulme etc etc etc. Halton Hornets and Widnes Tigers were tremendous providers of international talent. You name me the talent coming out of Widnes nowadays .....over to you......

You don't have any idea how junior and amateur RL is struggling do you? The very fact the last SKY contract provided the funds to open development foundations at SL clubs was BECAUSE PARTICIPATION IN JUNIOR RL WAS FALLING. We have to bring in dozens off overseas players to keep SL standards up. We have to produce more players because the best are draining to the NRL as well. I don't think I've ever had to reply to a post that is so absolutely wrong as yours truly is.

Because overseas clubs do not sell SKY subscriptions, SKY get no income from abroad.

Yet Lockwood "suspects" SKY wants Superleague to "[iBecome a major and expanding player on the worlds sports stage"[/i

He says "[iIt was nice to see Ricky Wilby with a beaming smile on his face...he seemed content the RFL were satisfied....... over any lingering questions about New York[/i

Donnyman, so by your own account junior particupation in rugby league was falling even at the time of the last tv contract, is that correct? I assume you don't therefore advocate carrying on as normal and hoping things change and you have made your views on Toronto and expansion clear over and over again. So instead of telling anyone who posts on here why they shouldn't support expansion why don't you tell us what the sport should be doing instead? Wouldn't this be a more productive, and more positive, use of this thread? Just a thought.

Participation in soccer has fallen as there's so much more to do nowadays for kids, participation in both codes of Rugby has fallen heavily even more. That's not my account, but it is borne out of reality. For our game it was Steve Gill the ex-CEO at Castleford who did an major "get real" article to point this out. I'm close enough to Cas and old enough to remember the home grown talent they produced and how good they were, again not my "opinion". In those days clubs didn't put six to seven Antipodeans in their teams to shore them up.

The problem with this debate is your point [i"You tell us what the sport should be doing instead"[/i. Why do you think there is some sort of alternative plan the game can adopt that can suddenly make loads of talented kids turn to Rugby League? You tell me that?? What the sport has ALREADY done instead is dip into the pool of surplus NRL players and allowed around six per club (with rules that allow more), and shored up junior development by channelling £3,600,000 of the SKY money to clubs to pay for Development officers.

Why do you ask me to set out a plan? ......... Why can't you grasp the game had already sorted out a fully funded strategy of bringing in Antipodeans and local development officers?

Isn't this the problem with this "players" debate that many joining in think the game should find a solution/plan oblivious to the fact that it already has done that big time. They have done that big time with not very good results as you cannot press gang kids, yet we still get posts about how vibrant junior ARL is. It simply isn't. Kids don't want to play RL or RU much that's freedom of choice so how can we go against that? You tell me.

Which then leads me onto The "expansion" issue. OK people on here, and people in the RL press, even those at the top crave expansion. Do you know what this means? Again don't listen to me listen to Nigel Wood, Eric Perez, Ian Lenegan etc. Expansion of the professional game means more quality players and more TV money and those were the reasons for Catalans and now TWP joining in the game. The hope was France would develop lots of pro-quality RL players and North America would do that. But they are not doing that, there is no system or intention for one in North America.....There is no real system in France since they closed their academy. There is no TV money either from these places.

Over to you - ]do you think Les Cats and TWP expand the game beyond just travelling distances??]

So why don't you give me your thoughts and plans - why don't YOU be more "PRODUCTIVE" and "POSITIVE"? Too many posters think there is a magic solution, and the nature of these websites is under anonimity people can say any old rubbish, or like some just totally ignore reality and keep building a World league from Toronto to Belgrade and London to Perth in their heads.

For me this business of English RL is in a state of managed decline, and nobody knows what to do even RL rag editors, so they just stick their heads in the sand and garble on about expansion, expansion , expansion.......We are like it or not in a state of managed decline, and Lenegan and company are doing just that, and didn't need the TWP dream to deal us the blow of knocking London out of SL.

So Mr Expansion you tell me what will happen when New York replace Wakefield, and Toulouse replace Castleford and Ottawa replace HKR?? Will that "expand" the game in your eyes????

That started off well then quickly slid back into you usual anti expansion tirade. You have made your point. We get it.

I'm not 'Mr Expansion' - i'm pretty open minded but i'm not going to be won over with repeat quotes from (understandably) self serving club bosses and one sided arguments. I like a proper debate.

I'd like to discuss the role of Toronto/New York/expansion/etc might have in attracting yound kids to take up the sport in this country. In this social media age kids have different motivations and interests than when we were griowing up and fell in love with the sport. I say I'd like to discuss it but I fear you'll probably just quote that poll of Hull fans at me again so i'll sit this one out.

Who is "we"? Who are the other people you appear to speak for??? If it's "expansionists" then can I claim I speak for the apparent 80% of fans who are realists, a majority on the crowded terraces, and a minority on sites like this? Why do you think quotes have to be repeated? It's because if you don't like what the people who run the game say you just blank it out.

Toronto Wolfpack have been the darlings of social media for four years now and I haven't seen any kids wanting to be RL players because a load of ex-Leigh lads pretend to be a Canadian RL team. What on earth is attractive about that to young kids? Yes please DO sit this out as i don't want to be debating how TWP's apparent "Glamour" is wowing youth the world over, "One day dad I want to be Sonny Bill Williams".

It's always telling in any "debate" when one party starts to attack the other because they can't attack the debate. Anyway maybe you are right, kids across France will be wanting to follow in the footsteps of that great role model Israel Folau............

An absolute pleasure to agree 100% with you.

Never in the games history have we put so much into junior player development with SKY paying £Millions for SL clubs to run development foundations, and academies. All English clubs are geared up to player development to the highest level they can manage and now run reserves. This is very important for without the players coming through - like those young lads playing for Wigan and Saints this last two nights, there would be no game. To do this clubs need the money and they need the staff, and they above all need the interest from their local population to want to follow RL and the kids become pro players one day. So it's only the English Superleague clubs that underpin any development.

France don't do it America don't do it. yet they are lauded to high heaven on websites. I did a bit of a study on player development here and it turns out even we can't manage to stock our SL clubs without having to buy in from abroad. The average number of antipodeans in Superleague first team squads is 6 - 7. We clearly don't produce enough talent hence the league dropped from 14 to 12 and may drop to 10. How is there any room at all for any overseas clubs to play in Superleague but not contribute to player development, and of course worse than that, shut development down in towns that DO produce players in the here and now.

I'm right behind Lenegan, McManus, Pearson, Hudgell and Wrencat. 2022 has to be "Back to reality".............

Reality and the 1960 pit villages are not the same. i applaud your tenacity, but you grasp on reality is a bit loose.

Bradford, Keighley, Doncaster, Widnes, you epitomise the xenophobe that holidays in Spain. I am glad our country has grown up.

And here we go again, you don't have any sensible argument for closing down the game here that gets TV deals and develops players, in favour of fantasy clubs so instead of demolishing the argument you try to demolish the person making it. Pretty ignorant cowardly and nasty way of doing things.

If TWP win today you will be trumpeting the future of the game lies in America. Despite the fact the winning club would be many $Millions in debt fast rising, would never be able to develop any pro players, and would surpress the presence of English clubs that have a 124 year record of success whilst Canada have failed as regards Rugby League for the last 90 odd years since the game was first introduced there.

You epitomise a dreaming troll.

What's your final vision for the game? Catalans Valencia, Belgrade, Ottawa, New York, Toulouse, Avignon, TWP, Vancouver, Boston, Leeds and Wigan.....Go on - tell me how that works?

..

The only people "willing to gamble" are people dreaming and trolling on these internet sites - see above. Sure the editors of the RL press will keep on making noises about how we are missing opportunities in North America but despite the depth of knowledge of the game and some sort of proven business acumen they steer well clear of ever analysing for us how shutting down Cas, Wakey, Fartown, HKR, as pro clubs in favour of Ottawa Toulouse New York and Avignon, just as a start - as IR80 supports - will work.

Not that it can work.Superleague belongs to dreamers like Lenegan, McManus, Moran, Hudgell, Pearson, Davey, Carter Fulton etc. 2021 sees the end of the commitment that allowed TWP in.

Then the BIG DECISION will have to be made. Do we move the whole thing to North America??

More trolling.

History shaped the game as it is, a northern version of Rugby which has worked for 124 years and today is a professional game with professional players developed in the north, a solid and loyal fanbase, and the respect of sports TV with a sizeable TV deal, and northern businessmen who invest heavily.

Lets shut it down and move everyone to North America. Where will you be moving to to follow this??

I don't understand why you believe that the 80% of people who voted in the Hull poll now represent 80% of ALL Rl fans across England? That's a fair stretch.

Another genuine question. Has the Widnes academy closed since their relegation, and if not, what makes you believe that other academies of Super league clubs would close if they were relegated?

The problem with super league is that the Chairmen have to much power which leads to self interest and watching ones back therefore the stagnation of super league. Thankfully smart minds prevailed and Toronto got the green light which was a decision for the good of the entire game. They could see the negatives but also the positives.

Why don't we focus on the positives that most people see?

Are you trolling here? Or is your head so much in the expansion clouds that you think at the other end of the M62 80% of St. Helens fans want a Transatlantic league? That's a 3.000 mile stretch!!

Do you think St, Helens fans who watched the games at Leeds yesterday would prefer to play TWP and not get to play say Hull? Didn't you watch these games and thereby note the stark contrast between the phoney club and Hull, Leeds and Cas? Especially the number and the enthusiasm of the fans - are you blind and deaf? Or just trolling??

As for Bradford, Widnes and Newcastle running academies, they are doing this to qualify for Superleage 2022 when the SL chairmen and not the RFL will negotiate the English deal with the English broadcaster SKY who want a English league to attract English Subscribers, and English academies to produce the players. Are you naive? Do you think English clubs are now using their academies to provide North American clubs with players?

Your dreaming or trolling - whichever it is, is a very bad case and you need help.