Why not think about the reality of Rugby league, rather than use Soccer as an argument. Soccer is played to a massive level even if it's 20 African kids kicking a ball around in Burkina Faso. Rugby league skills are honed by organised games, superleague players are developed by playing organised junior RL, and that organising is underpinned by the staff in the foundations of Castleford, Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford & Fartown encouraging schools to play RL instead of soccer and instead of Rugby Union.

The best kids playing the game go onto the academies at Castleford, Wakefield Leeds, Bradford and Fartown, where they are intensively trained to be professionals but only one or two a year make it. Most are just not good enough. All these kids play the game because of a love of the game and their home town teams, and the chance to play for these clubs. These clubs produce the kids, their dads want to see them play for like Cas, they want to play for Cas.

Your telling me if we don't have RL foundations in Cas, Wakey, fartown, Leeds and Bradford to encourage School and junior ARL...And we don't have academies to train kids to be pro-RL players....and Soccer and Rugby Union are given a free run at promoting the game to schoolkids that kids will be breaking their neck to play RL because they want to go live in Toronto and play RL there? The whole North American thing is absurd, and the dream only exists on websites and in RL mags and rags edited by dreamers.

Bottom line is Toronto only have 23 players because players DO NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR TORONTO only if they can't get an M62 contract do they go, or only if Toronto heavily overpay them

Your argument could not be more factually wrong, but it just suits your dream.

Imagine it - a North American Superleague stocked by Northern English players, but no RL game here.......It's as absurd as one can get....

Steph, this is a debate site, and here I am, ready for you to debate the issue with me. Why not talk this through direct with me?

You are correct that we don't produce enough decent players, and we must have skilled players if we are to have a good enough product to sell to the public and ultimately TV. This is why we dig into the NRL talent as far as we can, At Saints don't you have Coote, Naiqama, Taia, Peyroux and Paulo. Sadly most SL sides have to have a core of half a dozen or more Antipodeans to keep the quality of the players in the teams up.

Yes again your right that some clubs don't produce a lot of talent from their local foundation/schools/junior RL/and academy and reserve set ups and so this has impacted on the size of Superleague. Once we had a 14 club top division, that's now 12 and it was suggested and voted on we go down to 10 clubs (the vote was lost). Despite the vote it still reflects your point that we just aren't producing enough players.

But your being very childish to say only Wigan, Saints and Leeds produce quality players. Some tremendous talents come out of Bradford, Hull, Castleford, Wakefield Huddersfield, Widnes and Warrington academies. Sadly some of them are lost to the NRL which reduces our own player pool. This indeed reduces standards here - you are right.

But where you are wrong is this.......

If you only bother with Wigan Saints and Leeds............And the rest of Superleague is Catalans, Avignon, Toulouse, Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, New York, Boston and jacksonville.....

Where do any of those 12 clubs get players from? There is no player development at all in North America, there is no player development in France to speak of and you can't have a three club English academy League???

Danny Lockwood in his editorial monday asked whether [i"We want Superleague to be a major and expanding player on the world stage"[/i Thing is I do want that Steph but how do we get to that if there is no player development in North America or France?? AND no player development anymore in Warrington, Bradford, Castleford, Widnes, Wakefield, Huddersfield and Hull.

Eject those clubs and we will be giving soccer and Rugby Union a massive boost........Perhaps Mr. Lockwood will enlighten us in his editorial next week how his vision would work??

You can add to the fact that two of the saints up and coming stars come from the area of the lowly club Rochdale

Just for a change, I totally agree.
The "full" expansion dream of a SL made up of 5 UK clubs, 2/3 French Clubs and 4/5 N. American Clubs will destroy to game in the UK.
The already shrining player pool will shrink further still and as you rightly say, leave kids or, more importantly, the parents of those kids, looking for something else to do.
Many of the athlete's in RL could excel in other sports and it doesn't take too much for people to lose interest.

The idiots running the sport seem to believe that if we have clubs in New York and Ottowa, suddenly the game will explode and RL will take over the world and whilst accepting that their is a fair bit more of a "draw" from cities like New York, compared to Wigan, it just seems like pure fantasy.
No local juniors, no local players - just a bunch of mercenaries playing under an expensive flag and meanwhile the death of the academies and community work carried out over here.

The HKR comment came from Neil Hudgell not me? It's in the RL press. Please stop making things up about me -just stick to the debate. If you have an "open mind" then you need to discuss with me how the progressive introduction of North American and French clubs into Superleague leading to the relegation of English Superleague clubs has "positives"??

1. Every English Superleague club gone for an overseas club is one less development foundation and academy meaning less players.
2. Once four overseas clubs are in Superleague SKY's nine club rule is broken and the TV deal is gone.

Where are the positives. Danny Lockwood apparently sees them. He says "[iDo (the SL bosses) want SL to be considered a major and expanding player on the world stage, or are they happy hankering down in heir M62 echo chamber[/i?". Of course Mr. Lockwood can write what he wants it's his paper, it's just that he never explains how his vision would work. He does tell us this week that SKY don't want an M62 league and would prefer a world vision which is news to me as Lenegan says they must have at least 9 M62 clubs.

But it's OK Lockwood and Sadler championing a Transatlantic league, and even more OK if SKY really did want that and we went for that.

But the problem then is when the Rugby league loving money men walk away from Wigan, Warrington, Hull, Hull.K.R. Saints, Fartown, Castleford and Wakefield, and the foundations and academies collapse, how on earth do we get the investment then? Does Lockwood think SKY will back a Transatlantic deal and treble our money for it?? Or is he just dreaming out loud?

Bradford have not been in the top flight for some time and are still playing the game and junior rugby is still vibrant in Bradford, as well as Widnes Rochdale Oldam cumbria, you argument that if clubs are not in super league the player pool will dry up is flawed. This great myth than somehow in the past all local players just players for their local clubs is just a myth. Even in the 50-60s players where not always products of their local area and sides where not made up almost entirely of local only players.
We now have more than half our national side playing in the NRL anyway so i suspect player dream of an NRL contract at rather than running out for Fev or Dewsbury or Leigh.
The best way to improve participation is to make the game look more attractive on a national and global level not regressing back to just the M62, it may be 10-15 or even 20 years before North american clubs can produce even 4-5 players but so what, it will take time, in that time it gives players along the traditional areas an opportunity to play professional sport. Even if Ottawa New York sides are full of English players Thats 50-60 more full time players playing the game rather than part time, how can that be a bad thing.

As for your kids in Africa kicking a ball about, you clearly do not know how much FIFA pump into organised coaching and planning player pathways in these areas.

So, if you reduce the number of UK clubs in the top flight, do you believe that participation numbers in the UK will rise or fall.
The main issue here is that some appear willing to gamble that RL will grow in the long term if we fully immerse ourselves in the N. American experiment.
Aside form the logistical issues of a "Western World League", it seems reckless to gamble the house on it's success.
It's still mind boggling that we should replace half of the current league with untried and untested clubs that may or may not prosper.

Also, last time I looked, Bradford, despite being a fallen giant, still had aspirations of getting back to the top. However, if we replace half of the current league with overseas clubs, it will be blindingly obvious to many clubs that they will never return, which is a game changer.

Also, IF Sky are so bloody interested in the new world order and I'm not convinced, why didn't we and they, expand to 14 clubs and include Toronto and Toulouse at the last shake up.
There is only one reason - either Sky of SL (or both) weren't confident that this would help them, either in terms of generating revenue or due to logistics.
The opportunity was there and "we" chose to ignore it ??

Junior Rugby is not vibrant in Bradford at all. what there is of it is mainly in south Bradford. It's laughable you think Junior rugby is vibrant in Cumbria. The Cumbria JARL has to double up age groups to manage to make leagues and they are tiny. The numbers of Cumrian players making professional is at an all time low and the lads still playing pro are on the fringes. Junior Rugby league in Rochdale is vibrant? really?? It just isn't. Name me the Rochdale born RL stars - go back as long as you like.

As for Widnes do you remember when they churned out Tony Myler, Andy Currier, Keith Elwell, Richie Eyres, Steve and Mike O'Neil, stuart spruce, Paul and David hulme etc etc etc. Halton Hornets and Widnes Tigers were tremendous providers of international talent. You name me the talent coming out of Widnes nowadays .....over to you......

You don't have any idea how junior and amateur RL is struggling do you? The very fact the last SKY contract provided the funds to open development foundations at SL clubs was BECAUSE PARTICIPATION IN JUNIOR RL WAS FALLING. We have to bring in dozens off overseas players to keep SL standards up. We have to produce more players because the best are draining to the NRL as well. I don't think I've ever had to reply to a post that is so absolutely wrong as yours truly is.

Because overseas clubs do not sell SKY subscriptions, SKY get no income from abroad.

Yet Lockwood "suspects" SKY wants Superleague to "[iBecome a major and expanding player on the worlds sports stage"[/i

He says "[iIt was nice to see Ricky Wilby with a beaming smile on his face...he seemed content the RFL were satisfied....... over any lingering questions about New York[/i

Donnyman, so by your own account junior particupation in rugby league was falling even at the time of the last tv contract, is that correct? I assume you don't therefore advocate carrying on as normal and hoping things change and you have made your views on Toronto and expansion clear over and over again. So instead of telling anyone who posts on here why they shouldn't support expansion why don't you tell us what the sport should be doing instead? Wouldn't this be a more productive, and more positive, use of this thread? Just a thought.

Participation in soccer has fallen as there's so much more to do nowadays for kids, participation in both codes of Rugby has fallen heavily even more. That's not my account, but it is borne out of reality. For our game it was Steve Gill the ex-CEO at Castleford who did an major "get real" article to point this out. I'm close enough to Cas and old enough to remember the home grown talent they produced and how good they were, again not my "opinion". In those days clubs didn't put six to seven Antipodeans in their teams to shore them up.

The problem with this debate is your point [i"You tell us what the sport should be doing instead"[/i. Why do you think there is some sort of alternative plan the game can adopt that can suddenly make loads of talented kids turn to Rugby League? You tell me that?? What the sport has ALREADY done instead is dip into the pool of surplus NRL players and allowed around six per club (with rules that allow more), and shored up junior development by channelling £3,600,000 of the SKY money to clubs to pay for Development officers.

Why do you ask me to set out a plan? ......... Why can't you grasp the game had already sorted out a fully funded strategy of bringing in Antipodeans and local development officers?

Isn't this the problem with this "players" debate that many joining in think the game should find a solution/plan oblivious to the fact that it already has done that big time. They have done that big time with not very good results as you cannot press gang kids, yet we still get posts about how vibrant junior ARL is. It simply isn't. Kids don't want to play RL or RU much that's freedom of choice so how can we go against that? You tell me.

Which then leads me onto The "expansion" issue. OK people on here, and people in the RL press, even those at the top crave expansion. Do you know what this means? Again don't listen to me listen to Nigel Wood, Eric Perez, Ian Lenegan etc. Expansion of the professional game means more quality players and more TV money and those were the reasons for Catalans and now TWP joining in the game. The hope was France would develop lots of pro-quality RL players and North America would do that. But they are not doing that, there is no system or intention for one in North America.....There is no real system in France since they closed their academy. There is no TV money either from these places.

Over to you - ]do you think Les Cats and TWP expand the game beyond just travelling distances??]

So why don't you give me your thoughts and plans - why don't YOU be more "PRODUCTIVE" and "POSITIVE"? Too many posters think there is a magic solution, and the nature of these websites is under anonimity people can say any old rubbish, or like some just totally ignore reality and keep building a World league from Toronto to Belgrade and London to Perth in their heads.

For me this business of English RL is in a state of managed decline, and nobody knows what to do even RL rag editors, so they just stick their heads in the sand and garble on about expansion, expansion , expansion.......We are like it or not in a state of managed decline, and Lenegan and company are doing just that, and didn't need the TWP dream to deal us the blow of knocking London out of SL.

So Mr Expansion you tell me what will happen when New York replace Wakefield, and Toulouse replace Castleford and Ottawa replace HKR?? Will that "expand" the game in your eyes????

That started off well then quickly slid back into you usual anti expansion tirade. You have made your point. We get it.

I'm not 'Mr Expansion' - i'm pretty open minded but i'm not going to be won over with repeat quotes from (understandably) self serving club bosses and one sided arguments. I like a proper debate.

I'd like to discuss the role of Toronto/New York/expansion/etc might have in attracting yound kids to take up the sport in this country. In this social media age kids have different motivations and interests than when we were griowing up and fell in love with the sport. I say I'd like to discuss it but I fear you'll probably just quote that poll of Hull fans at me again so i'll sit this one out.

Who is "we"? Who are the other people you appear to speak for??? If it's "expansionists" then can I claim I speak for the apparent 80% of fans who are realists, a majority on the crowded terraces, and a minority on sites like this? Why do you think quotes have to be repeated? It's because if you don't like what the people who run the game say you just blank it out.

Toronto Wolfpack have been the darlings of social media for four years now and I haven't seen any kids wanting to be RL players because a load of ex-Leigh lads pretend to be a Canadian RL team. What on earth is attractive about that to young kids? Yes please DO sit this out as i don't want to be debating how TWP's apparent "Glamour" is wowing youth the world over, "One day dad I want to be Sonny Bill Williams".

It's always telling in any "debate" when one party starts to attack the other because they can't attack the debate. Anyway maybe you are right, kids across France will be wanting to follow in the footsteps of that great role model Israel Folau............

An absolute pleasure to agree 100% with you.

Never in the games history have we put so much into junior player development with SKY paying £Millions for SL clubs to run development foundations, and academies. All English clubs are geared up to player development to the highest level they can manage and now run reserves. This is very important for without the players coming through - like those young lads playing for Wigan and Saints this last two nights, there would be no game. To do this clubs need the money and they need the staff, and they above all need the interest from their local population to want to follow RL and the kids become pro players one day. So it's only the English Superleague clubs that underpin any development.

France don't do it America don't do it. yet they are lauded to high heaven on websites. I did a bit of a study on player development here and it turns out even we can't manage to stock our SL clubs without having to buy in from abroad. The average number of antipodeans in Superleague first team squads is 6 - 7. We clearly don't produce enough talent hence the league dropped from 14 to 12 and may drop to 10. How is there any room at all for any overseas clubs to play in Superleague but not contribute to player development, and of course worse than that, shut development down in towns that DO produce players in the here and now.

I'm right behind Lenegan, McManus, Pearson, Hudgell and Wrencat. 2022 has to be "Back to reality".............