Ted, thanks for the post and thanks for your time as well.......We are miles apart and can't agree on anything as long as you think your view is "rational"?

1. Yes I agree it needs "Plenty of things to work" for a TV deal, Perez himself said it would need [i"5-6 North American clubs in Superleague before there could be a large NA TV deal".[/i Any less than 9 English clubs in Superleague and the existing SKY deal is gone so it's impossible to get to an NATV deal without without half the English SL clubs gone, then the other half would go as the SKY deal collapses. Your first point is nonsense mate.

2 Yes I agree it's impossible for TWP to supply home grown SL players which is why they didn't commit to doing this. Player production was to be the conversion of Grid Iron players that was tried and failed, and TWP announced they would not be undertaking Junior development. Melbourne are nothing to do with this, I think everyone would be delighted if David Argyle came to London and threw $Millions at the Broncos....... Melbourne is a terrible and irrelevant argument to use mate. It's an Aussie club in Aussie equivalent to London Broncos.

3. You talk about making London, TWP, other French clubs (Avignon, Toulouse, Catalans) and North American clubs (Ottawa, New York, Montreal) successful through "concessions" - what would you concede to these clubs that you would not concede to actual successful English clubs? Why would English clubs stand for it - they wouldn't would they? I am suspicious of you here...

4. You say "[iIf we can get 5 successful North American clubs, I couldn't give a rats backside where they get their players from[/i". This is both poor and it gives you away big time....

a. You know full well New York, Ottawa, Montreal and Toulouse will want to sign the squads of relegated clubs like Salford, Huddersfield, Wakefield and Castleford.
b. You know full well such relegations will start to destroy the infrastructure of player development here as foundations reserves and academies close.
c. You know full well that fans here will be up in arms and will leave the game in droves if their clubs are removed and their players shipped abroad to North America - and many players will not go, and will go find other jobs here. Argylle has to massively overpay the few he can get.
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5. You don't "see" anything, it's just a poor bit of trolling... you answered nothing mate...

I don't think he explained his point of view well at all Craig? He grossly assumed clubs and fans here would standby and cheer the North Americans on whilst their own clubs were disadvantaged and relegated. Go back and read the rubbish he posts?

Does "Craig HKR" mean your a HKR fan? The betting on here was HKR would be relegated and TWP stay up. It could still happen. Maybe Hull could have a bad year one year and New York could replace them too....How well would that go down in Hull?????? We've already seen one poll where 80% of Hull people already think TWP are a nonsense??

One thing is for sure it won't happen, but if it did they would have to extend the KC to accommodate Hull City's thousands of new fans.....

It wouldn't be the first time fans have stood by and watched their club die though donnyman, although I agree with pretty much everything else you said.

The day this nonsense started I thought what happens when NA clubs replace SL clubs here. Will the English directors be happy and still put the money in? will their English fans be happy and still watch? Will SKY be happy to pay for a Transatlantic league, will the junior and amateur game be happy as interest and opportunities are lost here?

Sadler opines [i"It is clearly in the interest of rugby league as a whole that Torinto Wolfpack are successful to the point where they create a significant market for Rugby League in North America"[/i

It isn't clear to me at all what that soundbite means and Sadler and Lockwood never explain it. NATV re not interested in screening RL, Rugby Players in NA (and there are tens of thousands) are not interested in playing RL, and despite several thousand paying fans TWP's losses are now what about $10,000,000? That's OK if the owner is a massively rich RL fanatic - how many more of them are there in NA?

And every time NARL tries to grow a club NARU appears on the scene to counter it. The RL press really owe fans here an explanation, I won't hold my breath.....

Why on earth would I be trolling - I'm presuming you think I'm an alt account for another poster (or posters), but I can tell you I am genuinely not. I believe expansion is an opportunity, but it's one that will take decades to pay off.

You assume I want expansion at the cost of traditional clubs, and you couldn't be further from the truth - If it's done right, with the right amount of investment and commitment long term, it will be good for the sport as a whole. My view is that I'd like to see the whole professional structure of rugby league grow - super league should eventually be 16 teams, play each other home/away, no loop fixtures (apart from play-offs), but the long term aim should be that a number of these 16 clubs are non-heartland. And the long, long term aim should be to have more than 1 full-time professional league - the Championship should be full time, and ideally, these call all be English clubs, because America and France would be strong enough to have the same - appreciate that is all pie in the sky at the moment, but you've got to start somewhere, and why not with expansion of Super League?

Yes, in the short term expansion clubs will have to rely on players from heartlands, mercenaries, poached talent (call it whatever you want), yes it will nark off some of the traditional clubs who are rightfully only interested in their own survival, but I believe it's good for the long term health of the game. I'm also willing to accept I might be wrong, but I think the potential benefits are worth the risk (which I see as negligible).

Genuinely not trolling - they way I see it, if we don't do expansion, we will struggle to get better than what we have currently - there are plenty of Super League clubs who live hand to mouth, and there's a whole different argument about what those clubs could/should be doing to improve their fanbase and commerciality, most of the clubs below Super League (bar a couple) rely heavily on being propped up by fan funding or other short term schemes to survive.

The money just isn't in the game currently to enable it to reach it's potential, expansion offers an opportunity, but will also rely on some very rich benefactors. In my mind, the super rich are more likely to want to invest in expansion areas where the markets are potentially huge (such as Toronto, New York etc) than any small town or even City in Northern England. These people know they're going to have to throw plenty of money at the project, so if they ever want a return on that money, they'll need that bigger market. And if they're just doing it as a plaything, then again with no disrespect to any traditional club (including Leeds, my own club), they're probably going to want to be somewhere a bit more exciting than most Northern UK cities, and I'm guessing will want them near their other business enterprises.

I get that some will see this as a dig at traditional clubs, areas etc (and presumably that's why you think I'm trolling), but it's not - the heartland clubs are vital to the game, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look to expand our footprint.

In terms of what concessions should they get, I'd like to see them given bigger allowances for overseas players and an increased salary cap that starts with a fairly substantial increase and gradually reduces over say a 5 or 10 year period (this would probably also mean needing to scrap relegation all together and have licencing). I get this potentially creates an uneven playing field, but as you stated, they will have to pay 'overs' for players to attract them in the short term, and ultimately, I want them to be successful, as if they're successful, there's more chance the locals will buy in and become rusted on fans, then their families and kids etc become fans, then kids might want to play the game etc etc, but it takes a lot of time and money. If some rich sugar daddy is willing to put in that time and money, then what has everyone else got to lose?

I'd be interested to hear your views Donnyman on what the game looks like in 10/20 years time? Where is the investment and growth of the game coming from?

(1) OK apologies if you genuinely believe this "expansion" stuff. Please look carefully at where the interest in RL lies - along the M62. Please note who privately invests £Millions into Superleague clubs?? Most of the major investors if not all are also rooted in the M62. They are northern lads who grew up with RL.....

Look carefully at TWP - where does the investor have his roots - in the land of NRL in Australia - he's an NRL fanatic. Virtually All the current investors inc France have been born, bred and brought up with Rugby league. So who are all these "Super rich" people who know nothing of Rugby league and who if they like Rugby have Union to invest in which they are all likely to know more about and where there may be some sort of a return as opposed to Argyle's massive ££10Million dollar loss.

(2) the investment will come from where it has always come from, from those people in those areas that still have a deep love for Rugby League.

and people on web sites want to shut these RL heartlands down as "failed"....over to you??

Nowhere have I said shut down heartlands... Why can’t the 2 exist together - if there’s rich people on the M62 corridor willing to invest in their local clubs, then that’s fantastic, but why can’t that stop another rich person setting up a club outside of those heartlands? It doesn’t need to be 1 or the other.

Yes, most of the benefactors are from RL heartlands, but if they’re happy to set up elsewhere, why not? What’s the harm in opening up to a new market? The bigger the footfall of the game, the bigger the fan base - then in 20/30 years time, you want just be relying on rich folk from the M62 corridor.

You’ve not answered the question on how the game grows? Relying on the M62 corridor will see the game maintain its position at best.

How long do we give them? This is catalans 15th season and french rugby doesn't seem to have improved one bit and they have lost their tv deal

Are you saying you don’t believe Catalans are a success? Yes, the French national team are not much better, but they appear to have very strong crowds, there’s more French players in the game than I can remember previously, they appear financially stable... what do you think success looks like?
On the face of it, they appear much more stable than may other English RL clubs, including some Super League teams.

If you’re serious about it, you don’t put a time limit on it....

Edit - And I believe a new French TV deal is imminent. Though I’d argue you need more French clubs around the top table for that deal to really have any significance. So the next focus should be on getting Toulouse to the same level as Catalans.

It depends what the criteria for success is. If it's improving the national team and French RL then no. Their top players are all aussies on a last pay day or those that come with baggage.

It's the same with Toronto. They made plenty of promises and will ultimately be judged on those.

I’m asking what do you see as success?

I’ve cited their crowds, financial stability and increase in volume of french players across the game as success measures - which to me is more important than their on field performances or squad. How would you measure success?

Also probably worth noting, they are one of only a small handful of clubs to have actually won any silverware in the last 30 years, despite not being in existence for that full period

Again....it depends on what the criteria for them was/is.

Their crowds are strong that is a definite and whilst they occasionally have strong on field performances these usually aren't due to an influx of local players. They are 15 years in but don't yet have a reserve side or academy so production of French/Catalans players isn't going to improve much.

Why were they brougut in?

If it was to have a solid crowd and win the odd trophy then yes they have been a success.
If it was to improve the French national side, French RL and add an influx of Gallic flair to SL then no they haven't.

How many of their players in the last 15 years have been plucked from the French league and moulded into top SL stars? Surely that was the idea behind them?

1. The two cannot exist together because the player pool is only big enough for about 10 decent full squads of quality players.

That is typical of your type of argument with respect. You can invent clubs anywhere you want but you also have to invent rich investors to pay the bills and invent squad after squad of 25 extra top quality players to staff them. Sorry but argument over it HAS to be one or the other. SKY will only back an English league so that is that.

2. It doesn't grow by you inventing rich owners who do not exist, setting up clubs where these are no pro players, and doing this in countries where the media have no interest paying £Millions to televise a sport nobody is interested in in any number

And that is the reality in a nutshell

1. NO homegrown players now or ever as they don't play RL in Canada

2. NO rich investors, into 4 years now and the only investor is an NRL aussie

3. NO NATV deals and by their own admission none without 5 NA clubs in SL which will kill the game here.

The game does not grow it survives and 124 years of struggle proves my case 100% If your thinking of replying don't bother. Go have a long hard think about all the stuff your inventing in your head. Get a book like Trevor Delaneys the grounds of Rugby League and you will find 50 attempts to expand the game over 124 years......

It's in reality all about survival......It always has been........and Sadler and Lockwood should know this.

It was to improve the French national side up to Test Level status.

It has failed on the criteria it was created on.

I love Catalans but there is now a strong argument they may serve the game better playing in the French league.