FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Marquee players - loophole |
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: Him "If clubs wanted to hide things from the RFL I'm sure they could. However it's a huge risk for the club, the player and the CEO of the club because if it's discovered then they're committing fraud. Not only could the RFL harshly punish the club and individuals, they could potentially be charged and other clubs could sue them for damages.
I doubt many if any club would be willing to take that risk, especially as most clubs can't really afford the wages they pay anyway.'"
not a chance anyone is going for fraud. You would basically be suing someone for not colluding with you to keep wages down. It would be like suing the guy you burgled a house with for not giving you your share of the loot.
First thing that would happen if we had a Melbourne-esq situation is that one of the players involved would be throwing a lawsuit at the RFL for restraint of trade.
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47035_1386433761.gif We can be bold enough to make a stand and do battle for our views and beliefs. But we must strive to be mature enough not to resort to unnecessary personal attacks upon people with opposing views.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_47035.gif |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "not a chance anyone is going for fraud. You would basically be suing someone for not colluding with you to keep wages down. It would be like suing the guy you burgled a house with for not giving you your share of the loot.
First thing that would happen if we had a Melbourne-esq situation is that one of the players involved would be throwing a lawsuit at the RFL for restraint of trade.'"
They could have done that for years, they don't as it's completely voluntary as to whether you are a RL player or not. You can get money in other trades if you want.
The clubs chose to play in a league system that has it as part of the rules, there is nothing to stop them starting their own league elsewhere under their own rules about wages.
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: bramleyrhino "The Wigan situation related to existing contracts, not new ones. It wasn't so much that contracts were backloaded but instead, that payments were deferred so that monies due to be paid in one salary cap year were pushed back to a subsiquent year, with Wigan using the deferred amount to pay Fielden when they were up the creek. The wording used at the time, IIRC, was that this was against "the spirit of" the salary cap - Wigan weren't technically in breach of paying too much to players that year, but that was because they deferred some of their contracted liabilities that year.
The Wigan situation probably isn't comparable to what may happen with Sandow. A better comparison is perhaps Leeds' re-signing of Lee Smith a few years back where Smith (reportedly) was paid very little for his first season back. Following Smith signing, Leeds lost Scott Donald, Matt Diskin and Greg Eastwood (all big earners) and I dare say some of that cash was worked into Smith's second year contract.
I'm not aware of any rule change that prevents a club doing this with any player, as long as the club meets all relevant regulations on NMW and (in the case of overseas players requiring visas) minimum salary requirements.'" I don't think we are too far apart other than im pretty sure those 'other players' deferred that payment by signing new contracts which were lower, and then another one to begin the next season, were higher. Deferments are already dealt with under the regs as they count in the year they are accrued, not the year paid so it wouldn't really make a difference without that. However the RFL decided that because they would have been due moneys under their old contract, it was the re-working of that same money into a contract at a later date which was against the spirit of the cap.
With Smith at Leeds, i think they signed him to a short term contract, and then to a long term contract. So whilst in practice it may have worked out like that. Officially he signed say a 6month contract at x amount, and then a new 3 year (or whatever it was) at Y amount
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[quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35]
[quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]: |
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| Quote: bewareshadows "They could have done that for years, they don't as it's completely voluntary as to whether you are a RL player or not. You can get money in other trades if you want.
The clubs chose to play in a league system that has it as part of the rules, there is nothing to stop them starting their own league elsewhere under their own rules about wages.'"
its completely voluntary to do any job. If the voluntary/involuntary nature of it was a deciding factor, no restraint of trade action could every be brought ever. You cannot have an involuntary contract, it couldn't be enforced.
Also the RFL's rules are subservient to the law. The RFL cannot hold clubs to rules which are against the law.
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fonds noir/Buzz Lightyear.gif :fonds noir/Buzz Lightyear.gif |
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| If Sandow had left the Eels this year he would still have expected him to pay the bulk of his remaining salary for this season. I can fully understand why Parra told him to sling his hook, as they'd have lost a player, have no real replacement mid season when there's still some hope, and have to pay him as well. Garbutt to Leeds was the same except Bennett wasn't going to use him this year so it made no difference if he played Qld Cup or SL.
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| If I recall correctly Blake Solly or someone in a similar position stated that every player in the world has a price, and if a club sign a player the RFL are knowledgable enough to know their salary or an approximation of it.
I think it's pretty easy to do, plenty of Fantasy Games do it, I bet in reality they aren't far wrong.
This would then be cross checked against what each club submits.
It's not rocket science.
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'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'
Yves Le Prieur, the real inventor of the aqualung: |
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| I would have thought if a club wanted to cheat it would be easier than the example here, all you need to do is pay a player 50k through the clubs books and pay the rest into an overseas account NOT from the clubs books. Probably being done currently.
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193.jpg Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk:193.jpg |
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| Quote: rover49 "I would have thought if a club wanted to cheat it would be easier than the example here, all you need to do is pay a player 50k through the clubs books and pay the rest into an overseas account NOT from the clubs books. Probably being done currently.'"
Fiddling the salary cap is one thing, fiddling the tax man (which this would be) is going to result in prison.
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| As I have just said, the RFL, better than pretty much everyone else here, can probably guess pretty closely the weekly/monthly/yearly salary of every player in top grade, so with a live cap or similar, they could approximate the amount a player would demand.
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| Quote: Richie "Quote: Richie "I would have thought if a club wanted to cheat it would be easier than the example here, all you need to do is pay a player 50k through the clubs books and pay the rest into an overseas account NOT from the clubs books. Probably being done currently.'"
Fiddling the salary cap is one thing, fiddling the tax man (which this would be) is going to result in prison.'"
But it's not an issue if it's a foreign owned and located company paying a player for 'non-rugby related' jobs during the off season.... As long as the tax is paid in the relevant country it's not an issue..... It's effectively a 2nd job in the eye of the tax man, that's all, the player can notify and pay their aspect of the tax, it has nothing to do with the RFL and they can do nothing about it unless they can prove the company is owned by someone to do with the club.... The RFL cannot stipulate players aren't allowed 2nd jobs.
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2244_1299706258.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_2244.jpg |
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| Quote: SmokeyTA "not a chance anyone is going for fraud. You would basically be suing someone for not colluding with you to keep wages down. It would be like suing the guy you burgled a house with for not giving you your share of the loot.
First thing that would happen if we had a Melbourne-esq situation is that one of the players involved would be throwing a lawsuit at the RFL for restraint of trade.'"
If clubs deliberately withhold salary cap information in order to gain an advantage then that is fraud. In the same if you don't tell your insurance company pertinent information when making a claim.
The Aussie police investigated Melbourne after their shenanigans but due to the high profile nature and political pressure from both Melbourne's owners and their number 1 fan it wasn't taken any further.
Over here there's no such situation to hold the police back, they'd love it. In the same way the UKBA went after RL imports with a vengeance and HMRC went after the image rights etc.
Don't let your dislike of the salary cap get in the way here, not reporting this kind of information is very, very serious and I can't see many clubs wanting to take that risk, especially as it only takes 1 disgruntled person to blow the whistle and there aren't the number of quality players around in SL to take a club from average to the top without it being blatantly obvious they're over the salary cap.
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193.jpg Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk:193.jpg |
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| Quote: Superted "But it's not an issue if it's a foreign owned and located company paying a player for 'non-rugby related' jobs during the off season.... As long as the tax is paid in the relevant country it's not an issue..... It's effectively a 2nd job in the eye of the tax man, that's all, the player can notify and pay their aspect of the tax, it has nothing to do with the RFL and they can do nothing about it unless they can prove the company is owned by someone to do with the club.... The RFL cannot stipulate players aren't allowed 2nd jobs.'"
If it could be done, and avoid tax, my own employer (I'm an international assignee) would be doing it. In reality, if the UK tax office sees a guy working 9 months here for x and sees him earning more than that for a short overseas period, they're going to call foul.
Back from the tax man to the RFL, I believe the salary cap rules state any "second job" income also counts towards the cap.
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'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'
Yves Le Prieur, the real inventor of the aqualung: |
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| Quote: Richie "If it could be done, and avoid tax, my own employer (I'm an international assignee) would be doing it. In reality, if the UK tax office sees a guy working 9 months here for x and sees him earning more than that for a short overseas period, they're going to call foul.
Back from the tax man to the RFL, I believe the salary cap rules state any "second job" income also counts towards the cap.'"
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'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'
Yves Le Prieur, the real inventor of the aqualung: |
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| Quote: Richie "If it could be done, and avoid tax, my own employer (I'm an international assignee) would be doing it. In reality, if the UK tax office sees a guy working 9 months here for x and sees him earning more than that for a short overseas period, they're going to call foul.
Back from the tax man to the RFL, I believe the salary cap rules state any "second job" income also counts towards the cap.'"
Bit harsh if he has a property income or owns a part of a family business that is successful. Some players are capable of earning more outside of rugby, I listened to an interview with Ben Cockayne about his 'second' income and he clearly stated he makes MORE from that than RL.
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1506.jpg [quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm]
[quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm]
[quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg |
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| Quote: rover49 "Bit harsh if he has a property income or owns a part of a family business that is successful.'"
That sort of thing isn't included. I doubt that Rob Burrow's physiotheraphy business is something that the salary cap auditors concern themselves with - unless Leeds Rhinos were making regular payments to that business.
The rules Richie alludes to issues such as sponsors (or other third parties) paying a player in return for benefits that could be related to the player's rugby activity (such as his image).
I believe that this was often used as a way to top-up player payments in the early days of the cap but now, those payments would typically count on cap. If Leeds Building Society wanted to pay Kevin Sinfield directly they could but if they plan to use him in a way that relies on his rugby playing activities (ie, "Leeds captain Kevin Sinfield endorses LBS's new account"icon_wink.gif, that counts on cap.
Similarly, I believe the employment of a player's partner also has salary cap impilications. That rule apparently changed after it transpired that a Mrs Renouf was the highest paid receptionist in the North West.
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