Damn Communists.

I blame the credit crunch.

I blame it on [ithe boogie[/i.

Henderson Gill's the be specific.

It's got nothing to do with Wigan (ignoring the fact that they are a superb example of how to completely mis-manage a salary cap), none of the points that you raise about "falling standards" relate to the salary cap. It's just that you come out with the same rethoric after every Wigan defeat.

Football doesn't have a salary cap and yet, the standard of English football players (in my view) is falling. Whilst you could say that we are no longer producing a Hanley or an Edwards, the FA aren't producing another Matthews or Charlton. We are producing good players, not world beaters, but good quality players. The reason we don't have an Ellery Hanley in every team is the same reason why Northern Ireland haven't found another George Best or why Yorkshire CC haven't found another Fred Trueman - those players don't grow on trees.

Lets say we scrap the salary cap tomorow morning - what happens then? Are a bunch of school kids in the West Country going to swap RU for RL? Are amateur clubs in this country going to be over-run with talented kids wanting to play because they might become multi-millionaires? Are coaches and facilities going to improve to make the most of that talent? Of course they aren't.

Top-level spending in Super League (ie, player salaries) has minimal effect on grass roots RL. Where the clubs engage through the amateur game is through community work, not through buying in the most expensive Aussie that they can find.

Of course the salary cap is working.
It is designed to drag the best down to the level of the rest.
It has succeeded in that. The RFL in introducing SL in 2008 said they were to continue their successful policy of levelling down.

Where it has failed is that it was brought in to stop clubs getting into financial trouble. In that respect it has failed totally. From Oldham in 1997 to Rochdale and Doncaster this year clubs have continually got themselves into financial trouble despite all being subject to salary caps.

It was then suggested that SL would be competitive due to the cap restrictions. What was not wanted was one club winning everything as Wigan used to.
In that it has failed. Saints have topped the League the last four seasons and won the cup the past three. These past few years SL has been a one horse race just as when Wigan won things. That SL has been a competitive League is total nonsense.

We were then told that due to the cap and the competitive SL this would strengthen the International Squad and we would have far better results v Aus & Kiwis than prior to the cap. So to the cap fans the 52-4 humiliation in Melbourne 2008 world cup was a far better result than the 38-10 victory over the Aussie in 1992 in the same City. Prior to the cap we used to win one lose two v the Aussie. Since the cap we've won one in the last fourteen.

We do not have the same calibre pf player in SL as we had prior to the cap. Fourteen years after Union went pro SL & RFL still haven't managed to deal with it and still bring in quality Union players to league. Clubs have the money but they can't spend it due to the salary cap restrictions.

BK is absolutely right. The decline in British RL standards is due to the cap.
Two years ago 49% of SL players were from overseas and the number of British players in SL has halved since its inception. That's due to the success of the salary cap restrictions!

As for getting out of it we haven't a hope. Our chairman is a devoted fan of the cap and all its "successes". When the majority of SL chairmen are in favour of no progress as it would make them less competitive we have no chance. Unless some chairmen who want the game to progress and succeed break ranks then the outlook is grim indeed.
The next time we travel down under at this rate of decline our 52-4 thrashing might seem by then a reasonable result.

Personally I'd be all for the salary cap if teams were rewarded for bringing youngsters through the youth system but all we get is average or way past their best Aussies at every single club in the league.

The amount of over hyped Australians in Super League is unbelievable. I've watched Tim Smith for the past year and cannot believe he was once a young player of the year in the NRL.

There are odd gems like Dobson at Hull KR and Gidley at Saints but the rest just stop young lads coming through for me.

Most of the Australian imports are not that much better than what we have. As individuals they are all hype and no substance.

Collectively as a national side they have the edge because of the mental toughness sharpened by the origin series, not because of better individual talent - in my view.

Definetly though standards have been brought down. Not just here in Super League but in the NRL as well.

I have to say I find this one of the funniest things about these anti salary cap rants from some Wigan fans. Their irrationality extends to claiming that Saints have dominated a competition that in reality they have won once in the last six years.

My ability to debate is actually quite good but why waste the time with you.
You're like a broken record, salary cap is killing the game blah blah blah rugby's gone down hill blah blah blah

Only Wigan fans have this view, you're in the minority
This is coming from a Wire fan and we have loads of money, we could quite easily assemble a fantastic squad without the SC but that still doesn't change my view.
Your view is an antiquated one

So in other words, one of the two clubs that have managed the cap properly have been successful? Quelle surprise.

It's a wonder that when Wigan overspend the cap in 2007 by some £220,000 (enough for two international players then), they could still only manage a mid-table finish.



I'd agree in part, but the question should be why those players are not deemed good enough to be entrusted with the pressures of SL rugby. Is it down to a coaches decision or is it down to the players not being capable. Either way, it is an issue to address although, unfortunately for Kenny, not a salary cap one.

Erm

Where has this quite bizzare claim that standards have dropped come from?

What single shred of evidence is there that the best have been lowered down?

If any of the salary cap denigrators can tell me why this is the case, then we can progress.

But go back and watch those old games, and remember, only one club is full time, thats why they look better. It isnt because they are better by any stretch of the imagination certainly not to me who has been watching the game for over 30 years.

Most of the problem might be completely removed if XBretKennyX and his ilk would actually admit that there were actually some very good players appearing for other teams (this applies to a lot of people in the other camp too)

I dare say admitting that their team isnt a "top" team any more might help as well.

The SC has had nothing like the effect on the game as a whole that RU turning pro did. That removed a huge source of outside backs from league (plus a more minor problem of some players lost to Union). If SL clubs had no cap, they'd still struggle to sign union backs given the disparity in income between the top union and league clubs and the profile union has. Cap or not, there's no way clubs would be signing up union stars as they used to.

When you look at GB's best outside backs over the past 30 years, a hell of a lot were from Union. I think that covered a lot of deficiencies which were actually there in terms of junior development.

In addition moving to summer rugby meant the loss of short-term signings from Aus (often the superstars who wouldn't sign full-time) and also the loss of chances for Brits to guest in Aus (possibly a bigger problem for GB). That was a move that had to happen though.

Add to that fact that Wigan fans are looking through cherry-rosed spectacles at an era when they were the only game in town for years, and the whole SC argument falls on its . How 'great' were games between lower placed sides during Wigan's dominance? No better than now I'd bet.

And you CANNOT ignore the near death of Leeds, Wigan and others as a direct result of misuse of funds when discussing the salary cap.

What is holding the game back in England now far more than the Salary Cap is a dependence on frankly very poor Aussies/Kiwis. And look to Wigan as the best example of that. Get rid of your 5 out of 7 overseas backs (if that figure doesn't make everyone shake their heads then nothing will) of whom not a single one is a star, and replace with two real top flight Aussies and youngsters, and I'd bet that Wigan would be no worse than they are now.

If your club chooses to spend cap money on the likes of Carmont, Phelps, Leuluai, Richards and Roberts, then I'm afraid you deserve mid-table mediocrity and to forever wonder why you don't win anything and why most games you watch are p*ss poor.

Unfortunately fans are as much to blame as coaches in this. I can actually understand a coach, who's job is almost permanently on the line, being conservative and saying 'bring in an Aussie' rather than take more risks with youngsters. That attitude will filter through the whole club, and make sure that junior development is not taken as seriously as it should be.

What's less forgiveable is us fans demanding instant success and complaining that our clubs aren't signing so-and-so from Australia. And before anyone asks, I've been watching Leeds for nearly 30 years, and have taken nearly as much enjoyment out of watching young British players succeed in the team as win the Championship. 2004 excepted.

Personally I'm not even refering to the Early 90s era. I think the standard has dropped from the early years of Super League.

Anyway I wasn't really arguing about that I was saying the cap should reward teams for bringing youngsters through their academy systems. They also rewarded players for loyalty to clubs.

Take Richie Myler for example. Salford have brought him through but he'll end up elsewhere - everyone knows that.

For me if a club bought him that club should have their cap squeezed less because of it. Every imported player both from home and abroad should see the cap tighten for every player.

Whereas when you bring kids through the cap would expand out giving you more freedom.

That way every club would have to find a good balance between local produced players and imports.

I've seen Wigan produce youngsters galore over the years but although we've kept some on and sent many to other clubs, an awful lot have been salary cap squeezed into the National Leagues and once they've gone their never seems a way back.

I fear we will be losing many more with the decision to reduce the lower grades to Under 20s aswell. We seemed to have been producing a few good potentials in the last 2-3 years but they've now decided to drop back to Under 20s rather than open age, which didn't work around 2003-2004-2005 an era that sees very few players play test rugby now. Or maybe I'm just not noticing?

If a player is a product of YOUR system then you shouldn't have to put him on the cap at all imo. Therefore Salford can pay Myler whatever they can afford and should Wire buy him they would have to put him on the cap and fit him in with the rest.

Secondly, your income should determine the cap imo. Yes SL has got closer recently but I personally don't think the quality is better. Clubs with no fans would need to bring them in in order to compete and we could then possibly see the game get bigger if they market it right.

Oh and just a point, Wigan didn't OVERSPEND. They spent exactly what they were meant too but just did it a different way that showed a loophole in the system. The RFL saw this and made an example of us with the pys deduction, hence the 2007 'credit note'

I don't buy into the argument that the SC has caused a drop in the over all standard of the league, although i do agree the standard has dropped (well sort of)

If you go back to the 1985 challenge cup final, i'm sure most would agree it was an excellent game, there were 2 subs and no rotation of subs. Forwards tired allowing the smaller faster players express their skills more easily. In todays game, with all teams full time pro and 4 subs with 12 replacements all teams are fitter, stronger and harder to brake down meaning the playmakers have less oppertunity to show off their skills so it would appear they have become less skillful. Not the case IMO.

RE the SC, i'm in favour. This year we will have a name on the cup which has not been there for a long time, that can only be good for the game. The recent rule changes which i am more excited about are this federation trained thing and the franchise system. Removing the threat of relegation, which in our sport meant a club pretty much had to go part time and all players contracts were null and void means clubs don't have to rely on ageing antipodeans and have the oppertunity to blood youth along with the federation and club trained thing which will force all clubs to bring through their own youth players leading to a reduction in foreigners combined with the SC ensuring that top players earning the top wages are spread throughout the league IMO leads to an excting future for our sport.

This of course will take a good few years until it beds in proporly but the future is bright.

Being a wiganer i do understand why some of us have a problem with the cap, at the end of the day we were on top before it's introduction and we are the club that has suffered most because of it. I don't expect any sympathey but i'm sure if it was your club in that position there would be a few of you who would feel the same way.

I look forward to the day when at the start of the season you genuinly can't predict who will finish top of the tree.

Maybe the top 3 sides aren't as chock full of superstars as they COULD be but then again the standard from that down to 12th is a hell of a lot higher than it would be otherwise.
At the end of the day the most successful teams are the ones who bring youngsters through, Leeds Saints and to a lesser effect Cas have gone from bottom to competitive on the back of some good youngsters.

I didn't agree with it some time ago but i'd like to see possibly any home grown players receive a 25% discount on the cap, nothing too drastic but it could possibly halt the breakup of champion teams which seems to happen a lot over in Aus. I'm all for everyone else having a go but they need to earn it.