Dickball

only people called Richard are allowed to participate.

Serious Rugby League.

I don’t insist on calling it anything, Chief. To be honest, it really doesn’t matter what we call it. It would change precisely nothing, except maybe some confusion amongst people who barely know it exists anyway. I don’t really see the point in changing it at all.


Like I said, we lose and we gain. The apathy, in RL’s old heartlands, has been gaining in the run up to the licence period and since it’s introduction. It is an apathy that sees clubs struggling to find local financial backers, sponsors and hinders their attempts at increasing their support base.

Licence criteria is also giving some clubs an ultimatum to either be happy to remain lower league forever or, at great expense, build new stadia while ensuring they have a team good enough appear in finals. Now, this is a perfectly reasonable demand. If a club achieved this and was awarded a licence, it would stand them in good stead. The problem is when they are turned down. They end up saddled with debt and huge rental agreements which are just not sustainable outside of Super League. So some Championship chairmen have some very risky decisions to make. Either give up all ambition, or risk everything. Leigh are a case in point here.

Look, I’m not necessarily moaning about licencing, for some it may work well, but it is having a detrimental effect on lower league clubs, that has seen its ties, to top flight RL clubs, gradually cut away.

How are the Crusaders coming along with their bid to enter the Championships, by the way? (genuine question)


There are still some clubs down there who have ambition, and have tried to put a package together that is capable of moving them forward in SL, but it could end up acting like a millstone round their necks in the lower league, where such a set up just isn’t viable. We seem to have some limbo clubs, in that respect. There is a plethora of problems that licencing is causing lower league clubs, and they won’t be solved by a fancy name change, introducing a French club or a different points system.


When I played, I thought I was playing RL. I'm sure it is the same now. I think that would always remain the case. What the public perception is, is exactly what we are supposed to be discussing anyway, isn't it? A name change to what and why.


I’m not arguing about whether the licence system is right, or demanding money from SL clubs, I’m merely pointing out the effect that decades of change, most of it totally out of anyone’s control, is having on lower league RL. For good or bad, right or wrong, it is affecting lower league RL badly. I would like to see money given to the lower leagues but, as you say, this is money generated from showing Super League and not Rugby League in the wider sense. You are right about SL providing players for England, but who do England play against, other than teams from the antipodes?

That’s right, teams from Wales, Ireland and Scotland, who need to draw from lower league clubs. If nothing else, this is why it might be worth tipping some of the tv monies, generated from broadcasting SL, at the lower leagues. Maybe link it entirely to youth/academy projects and ensure that any players that move to SL clubs from these academies mean recompense for the developing club. It’s not much, but it would at least be something.

I am not arguing about, or blaming everything on the licence system. That has been done to death. The licence system is one of many reasons we are seeing a declines in the health of lower league clubs, imo.


I have already pointed out that my post was a little tongue in cheek. It was referring to the fact that the vast majority of people watching it, would associate the game almost entirely, at a professional level with Super League, unlike, say football and the Premiership. I feel that this perception may grow over the next few decades, due to the withering of the lower leagues’ profile, status and ties to the top flight over several decades. Most of the changes are a reaction to issues beyond our control; the modern world and all it has to offer now, Professional RU, the dominance of premiership Football, the move to summertime &c. All these things have chipped away at RL as we knew it and are leaving its scars. The game is profoundly different to the one I grew up watching. It is played differently for a start, with many rule changes. There were many other facets to the game, outside of the league interest, such as all the cup competitions we once had and even international touring teams visiting your club.

But now, everything seems to be bundled up in Super League. Sadly, the international aspect, particularly from a northern hemisphere point of view, seems relatively poor, and even interest in the Challenge Cup seems to be waning. I was desperately disappointed to see all those empty seats in the Wigan v Leeds final, that would have been filled in the 70’s and 80’s by two smaller clubs.

So, “Super league” has become the games' [iraison d’etre[/i in this country.

Wembley may never be full again for a challenge cup final due to the fact that there are so many Wembley season ticket holders who will no doubt have no interest in going to watch a game of Rugby League. Think its called Club Wembley.. may be wrong tho.

If I was going to come up with a new name for RL I think I'd suggest
[iSpeedball[/i speedy players, fast hands, quick thinkers.
(was also a fun videogame for the sega megadrive)

Or to get with the times..

[ii-Ball[/i ball is shaped like an eyeball, great to watch, and always first to use current technology.

Best one so far!

If we could get Apple on board and I'd happily wave goodbye to RL and hello to iBall! Think of the marketing potential!

"The Apple Super League"

The ball comes out with new editions every few years with new technological advances. iBall 1.0 lights up every time it is touched by a player, iBall 2.0 can detect offsides, and iBall 2S includes forward passes. iBall Nano for mini league games. The video ref is the iRef.

Genius. Who do we ring?

If it were called i-Ball, all the players would have to wear black turtle neck jerseys and the boots would be made made out of aluminium.

<Double post>

I know, mate.

But Wembley holds 90,000 people. There were 78,000 in attendance at the final. I very much doubt that there are 12,000 Wembley Club members. You’d expect the two biggest clubs in the country to sell out, leaving only a few thousand seats, if that, empty. But there were huge gaps outside of that central tier.

The Challenge Cup final used to get 90,000+ attendances – even for clubs like Widnes and Castleford, so you’d think 85,000+ for Leeds v Wigan? Basically, max'd out.

And you are right to doubt it, because there are in fact 14,400 Club Wembley seats. Every one has been sold.

The mathematics is tough, but stick with this. 90,000 minus 14,400 comes to 75,600. Any more than that, is from the resale of available Club Wembley seats, as sitting on knees is not allowed.

There are 14,400 Club Wembley seats. Hope that ends this nonsense now.

Damn, you beat me to it!

I love it when people emphasise "nothing", and then say "except" something.


Who is struggling more now than they were before? You're just generalising. You haven't given one example. You say "we lose we gain", but we've gained more than we've lost which is the opposite of what you've been saying.


Or be reasonable with your ambition.
All it has stopped is the boom and bust methods to get to the top that were oh so prevalent in the past.


"I'm not moaning, but..."
You are moaning. If you wasn't moaning, the post wouldn't be so negative and it would certainly include a lot more facts rather than speculation and generalisation.


They got announced to be in Championship 1 about a month ago IIRC, as the newly named North Wales Crusaders (same badge I think).


Who here has said that a name change for the sport would solve all the problems of the lower leagues?
Regardless, it's a terrible argument to not do something. "This one change will not solve all the problems, so it's not worth doing".


You said that "Rugby League is Super League now anyway". Those were your words, then you went into a huge rant about the licensing system.
RL is not SL. When people play the sport, they don't think SL. You've said it yourself here. So surely, that's basically the end of this argument.


You're pointing out using what facts though?
You keep trying to cover your agenda, but it's extremely transparent.
We are a developing sport. Developing sports change a lot. Get used to it.


How many of these are actually Welsh, Irish and Scottish?
Maybe instead of going for second-rate Celts, the RFL should work on getting clubs from these countries into the lower leagues to produce bonafide Celtic players? Wait, isn't that what they've been doing? How many Welsh lower league clubs 10 years ago? How many now?


Isn't there already some compensation in place for signing players under 21? (May need this confirming).
Very few players in SL come from the lower leagues. They usually come from SL player's academies. We discussed on another thread about partnerships between the lower leagues and the SL and most of the fans of the traditional clubs in the lower leagues rejected the idea. They either want money for nothing or to moan about how bad it is down there.


You are arguing about it.
And you've not suggested any other reasons (you've rejected the recession as being a reason), so so far you are blaming everything on the licence system. And you've not actually given a factual example of a decline in health. You've just stated that they're struggling (which they always have at this level). So where is the decline?



Ah, so this is what it comes down to. The game is different now to what it was then, and you're going to take the cynical approach to it.
You can keep saying "I'm not..." but you are moaning/arguing/against the changes in the game because it's different to when you started watching. Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?
You've tried to find as many negatives as possible (but you're not moaning). Where are the positives? Are there none? If you don't think there are, then what's the point?


As mentioned, the Challenge Cup is down to Club Wembley. Your lack of knowledge on this (yet happy to come to a negative conclusion) shows your cynical views on the game. No matter what it does, there'll be a negative that you will look at. And yet you offer no logical solutions.

I don't get it?

Why?

You would think you’d want to see a positive outcome, rather than a negative one?

But hey, if you’re happy with either…

My point is that it is more likely to be a detrimental move, or, at best, pointless and ineffective.


People, such as you, told us that licenceing would stop boom and bust. Has it?

There seems to be a proportionally higher rate of clubs going into administration and even going out of existence altogether, since licencing was introduced and not just in the Championships. Doncaster, Oldham, Blackpool, Wakefield and Crusaders, all within the space of the licence agreement. Some clubs, like Leigh are hanging in by the skin of their teeth.



Has it? Where are Barrow right now?



You see, you are clearly one of those people who puts his fingers in his ears, when confronted with something he doesn’t want to hear, regardless of any validity. If you don’t see it as positive you dismiss it. Calling it moaning is the usual tactic.

I am discussing what I feel to be a broad range of issues for the decline of the lower leagues, including licencing; giving reasons for why it is happening. Just because you think everything is wonderful with few problems, doesn’t make it moaning. And calling it moaning doesn’t make the point I am making any less valid.



Glad to hear it. I must have missed that, as I thought they were still in discussion with the RFL about it. Thanks for the heads up.


The RFL seem to think that a name change from the ‘National Leagues’ to the 'Championships’ would somehow revitalize them. But, of course, I didn’t just point out the name change alone, did I?



If it makes no difference, why do it?

Usually, it is to make it look like something is being done when really it isn’t. That is why it is nothing more than a gimmick. Gimmicks solve nothing.


I haven’t ranted about anything, Chief. Oh… I forgot… you are one of those people who regards anyone that has a different opinion to you must be ranting.

I thought that I was merely discussing issues that affect the lower leagues in a reasonable way, making nothing but suggestions and demanding nothing. Whether I am right or wrong, is up for discussion. Perhaps, the Greeks should just tell EU ministers to stop moaning and ranting and all the problems will just float away?

Pro RL in this country is almost entirely about Super League, compared to how it used to be. Am I wrong in that?


What is my agenda and what makes you think I have that agenda?

Nobody wants to see the sport progress more than me and, if that means the licence system is needed, so be it. I was just looking at ways that might make it a little better for the lower league clubs. Terrible, I know. I’ll go and do some sort of penance immediately.



Why not. As long as they introduce these clubs in a genuinely viable way, while allowing them to develop and grow properly, before thrusting them into SL with a team full of Aussies and little genuine representation from the local area.


They still have work to do with England on that score too. But, to be honest, I couldn’t give a toss where a player comes from, as long as he is legal under international rules.


But, some do come from the lower leagues, or are developed in them after being released from Super League clubs, and then return. Also a lot of players in SL academies come from areas that have lower league clubs. These local lower league pro-clubs are what stimulate interest in the sport in the first place, give impetus to the setting up of local amateur teams, school teams and service areas, that SL clubs benefit from. The lower leagues provide SL clubs and players with many beneficial options, that it otherwise may not have.

They want money for nothing eh?

They didn’t reject the idea of ‘partnerships’, whatever that means, but being nothing more than feeder clubs isn’t likely to be popular with many. That is a different kettle of fish, and using the word partnership is somewhat disingenuous, if you are describing it as a simple partnership.

I was thinking more along the lines of a central RFL fund which makes it cost effective to run academies across the board. That would allow them to fill their clubs with their own homegrown talent, which would save them money. They would then be producing more professional players, than they do now, and that would be good for Super league too.

Despite the fact any money given to lower league clubs would probably have to come from tv money earned by SL clubs, there may be reasons to do it because of the mutual benefit and common good this could provide - or maybe not.


I did not say that the recession was not having an effect, but that it is definitely not the whole story, as you, casually asserted. I said that there has been a steady decline. If you still think, after all that I have written, that I am blaming this decline entirely on the licence system, then you are either not very bright, or you just haven’t read a dammed thing that I have written. You are the one that seems to only want to discuss the issues that the lower leagues are having with the system, not me. I have stated quite clearly, on a number of occasions, that there are many reasons for the problems suffered by these clubs, and even that it all maybe totally unavoidable. It is you who wants to put it all down to one thing (recession). It is you who insists that the licence system is causing no problems for the lower leagues and has even solved the boom and bust promotion race. I feel completely vindicated in countering those ridiculous assertions.



I am not arguing against any change. I am simply pointing out the consequences of those changes and the position that they put the lower league clubs in. I am not trying to put back the clock, or stop progress. These are just your assumptions, which is why you are completely misunderstanding my position.


I’m not trying to find any negatives – there are negatives for some though, even if you refuse to see them. Everything isn’t positive. There is no form of human existence where it is. That is why grown ups discuss the negative issues, in a reasonable and adult fashion, and try to come up with solutions. They make points, some of which may seem controversial, particularly to people who have already taken a hard-line stance against a proposition and refuse acknowledge it. You are one of these people. That is why you just write it off as moaning.



I hold my hands up to that one. I had no idea there was 14,000 Wembley Club members. I’m not sure of your logic when you try to assert that it means everything I say, and every assumption that I make must be wrong. We all make assumptions, we have to because we don’t know everything, and sometimes you are right and sometimes not. Not every assertion I have made is an assumption anyway. In fact, most aren't. I have always had to good grace to admit I am wrong. I suspect that you are not the same. I find your triumphalism here laughable. The Challenge cup still isn't what it once was as attendances are still relatively poor outside of the final. So my point still stands.

Pro-RL in this country is almost entirely identified with the Super League competition and brand.

For good or bad, that is the position, imo.