I think you would do well to cut the "anti-TWP" thing. Is there not enough "pro TWP content" on other threads as well? Given Hull fans are 80% against a high level of criticism has to be expected AND REFLECTED - do you want to censor this?? You know..... 4 out of 5 fans don't want the american dream but the dreamers get an equal say??

Noble OR McDermott are there for the money and you know it. They get well paid to deflect genuine criticism.

As for costing the game nothing, had SL not been tied to the commitment to allow the Championship winner to enter SL even though they were only a guest club, then they would not have "cost us" the relegation of a real expansion club in London Broncos.

If Noble and Mac were directing their criticism at me I would tell them to "grow up" and remember when this is all over, they will want to be working back here with fans they appear (if your claim is correct) to deride as childish? They are there for the money as they can't get that money here, that's fair enough but don't insult fans who pay good money.

Quote: Donnyman "His comment was correct. Your comment was "[iHudgell is only speaking out against Toronto to deflect their own inability to sign players to replace their injured".[/i Your just another TWP apologist. It was TWP who spent all their salary cap on 23 players and that is the issue. Tough, they have to abide by the rules. Pearson said they had [i"mismanaged their finances"[/i. Another chairman said [i"TWP do not have a hope of special treatment"[/i, another chairman said the[i"rules are in place[/i" and [iTWP didn't abide by them[/i. Another said there was [i"no hope they would be given any favours"[/i. Another comment was "[iYou can't change the salary cap rules at various stages"[/i. Another chairman said it was "[iTWP that chose to overpay players"[/i. another chairman refusing special treatment said [i"We had to loan out players to get under the cap last year"[/i So what you posted was the usual apologist rubbish for this useless made up club. As for Neil Hudgell whose club is out on the far side of Hull, he himself suffers from trying to persuade players to go play there as it's so far away from the conurbations of west Yorkshire and East Lancashire. He has to pay extra and he runs a real life club not a phoney Canadian club who could not get rid of homegrown players quick enough - now they are begging Quin Ngwati to come back and play for tuppence. And that's the real issue, players here don't want to go play for North American clubs, but will go if they are overpaid by enough money. TWP have themselves no player development system and never will have that, and TWP have a bunch of mercenaries and we all know SBW is just that and he'll be happy to just be paraded round and sat on the bench. It's you who has your head in the sand........'" I am not a Toronto apologist, it is that I have an open mind and can see both the negatives and the positives. I am also correct about the Hull KR situation. Club reps, coaches etc, come out and try and find the biggest target they can, Toronto atm, to try and deflect their own issues like being a firm candidate to be relegated and unable to sign players to booster their squad. https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... up-3782269 You're being a Hull KR apologist now. Having to pay extras because of the reasons you suggested is laughable and I don't believe you could write that without laughing. They're 40kms from Leeds for instance and it's not a backwater. KR have to pay overs because they are consistently a bottom team. I'd suggest you take your rose tinted glasses off and calm the aggression.

Quote: Donnyman "His comment was correct. Your comment was "[iHudgell is only speaking out against Toronto to deflect their own inability to sign players to replace their injured".[/i Your just another TWP apologist. It was TWP who spent all their salary cap on 23 players and that is the issue. Tough, they have to abide by the rules. Pearson said they had [i"mismanaged their finances"[/i. Another chairman said [i"TWP do not have a hope of special treatment"[/i, another chairman said the[i"rules are in place[/i" and [iTWP didn't abide by them[/i. Another said there was [i"no hope they would be given any favours"[/i. Another comment was "[iYou can't change the salary cap rules at various stages"[/i. Another chairman said it was "[iTWP that chose to overpay players"[/i. another chairman refusing special treatment said [i"We had to loan out players to get under the cap last year"[/i So what you posted was the usual apologist rubbish for this useless made up club. As for Neil Hudgell whose club is out on the far side of Hull, he himself suffers from trying to persuade players to go play there as it's so far away from the conurbations of west Yorkshire and East Lancashire. He has to pay extra and he runs a real life club not a phoney Canadian club who could not get rid of homegrown players quick enough - now they are begging Quin Ngwati to come back and play for tuppence. And that's the real issue, players here don't want to go play for North American clubs, but will go if they are overpaid by enough money. TWP have themselves no player development system and never will have that, and TWP have a bunch of mercenaries and we all know SBW is just that and he'll be happy to just be paraded round and sat on the bench. It's you who has your head in the sand........'" I am not a Toronto apologist, it is that I have an open mind and can see both the negatives and the positives. I am also correct about the Hull KR situation. Club reps, coaches etc, come out and try and find the biggest target they can, Toronto atm, to try and deflect their own issues like being a firm candidate to be relegated and unable to sign players to booster their squad. https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... up-3782269 You're being a Hull KR apologist now. Having to pay extras because of the reasons you suggested is laughable and I don't believe you could write that without laughing. They're 40kms from Leeds for instance and it's not a backwater. KR have to pay overs because they are consistently a bottom team. I'd suggest you take your rose tinted glasses off and calm the aggression.

yup, 117 KM from Craven Park, it does make me roll my eyes how idiots with internet access cannot check facts.

You and I know the state of things, as, fortunately, do the majority.

Do south American football teams just jack it in and stop developing player because all the best ones and quite alot off not so good ones all end playing in Europe. No they don’t, and the likes of Cas Bradford Widnes won’t either. Your not telling me 18-23 years old English players would nit jump at the chance to go play in Toronto for 2-3 years. I would.

Of course they would but that doesn’t fit in with his narrative. It really makes me laugh that his sole argument is based on the fact that Toronto haven’t yet produced anyone of SL standard whilst neither have a lot of SL teams. Toronto could do what most SL teams do. Put an academy player in their team who is bang average and then claim because he’s playing in SL he’s SL quality. That is the exact reason the standard of SL is at an all time low. Because besides Wigan, Saints and Leeds no one else can produce quality SL players

Why not think about the reality of Rugby league, rather than use Soccer as an argument. Soccer is played to a massive level even if it's 20 African kids kicking a ball around in Burkina Faso. Rugby league skills are honed by organised games, superleague players are developed by playing organised junior RL, and that organising is underpinned by the staff in the foundations of Castleford, Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford & Fartown encouraging schools to play RL instead of soccer and instead of Rugby Union.

The best kids playing the game go onto the academies at Castleford, Wakefield Leeds, Bradford and Fartown, where they are intensively trained to be professionals but only one or two a year make it. Most are just not good enough. All these kids play the game because of a love of the game and their home town teams, and the chance to play for these clubs. These clubs produce the kids, their dads want to see them play for like Cas, they want to play for Cas.

Your telling me if we don't have RL foundations in Cas, Wakey, fartown, Leeds and Bradford to encourage School and junior ARL...And we don't have academies to train kids to be pro-RL players....and Soccer and Rugby Union are given a free run at promoting the game to schoolkids that kids will be breaking their neck to play RL because they want to go live in Toronto and play RL there? The whole North American thing is absurd, and the dream only exists on websites and in RL mags and rags edited by dreamers.

Bottom line is Toronto only have 23 players because players DO NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR TORONTO only if they can't get an M62 contract do they go, or only if Toronto heavily overpay them

Your argument could not be more factually wrong, but it just suits your dream.

Imagine it - a North American Superleague stocked by Northern English players, but no RL game here.......It's as absurd as one can get....

Steph, this is a debate site, and here I am, ready for you to debate the issue with me. Why not talk this through direct with me?

You are correct that we don't produce enough decent players, and we must have skilled players if we are to have a good enough product to sell to the public and ultimately TV. This is why we dig into the NRL talent as far as we can, At Saints don't you have Coote, Naiqama, Taia, Peyroux and Paulo. Sadly most SL sides have to have a core of half a dozen or more Antipodeans to keep the quality of the players in the teams up.

Yes again your right that some clubs don't produce a lot of talent from their local foundation/schools/junior RL/and academy and reserve set ups and so this has impacted on the size of Superleague. Once we had a 14 club top division, that's now 12 and it was suggested and voted on we go down to 10 clubs (the vote was lost). Despite the vote it still reflects your point that we just aren't producing enough players.

But your being very childish to say only Wigan, Saints and Leeds produce quality players. Some tremendous talents come out of Bradford, Hull, Castleford, Wakefield Huddersfield, Widnes and Warrington academies. Sadly some of them are lost to the NRL which reduces our own player pool. This indeed reduces standards here - you are right.

But where you are wrong is this.......

If you only bother with Wigan Saints and Leeds............And the rest of Superleague is Catalans, Avignon, Toulouse, Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, New York, Boston and jacksonville.....

Where do any of those 12 clubs get players from? There is no player development at all in North America, there is no player development in France to speak of and you can't have a three club English academy League???

Danny Lockwood in his editorial monday asked whether [i"We want Superleague to be a major and expanding player on the world stage"[/i Thing is I do want that Steph but how do we get to that if there is no player development in North America or France?? AND no player development anymore in Warrington, Bradford, Castleford, Widnes, Wakefield, Huddersfield and Hull.

Eject those clubs and we will be giving soccer and Rugby Union a massive boost........Perhaps Mr. Lockwood will enlighten us in his editorial next week how his vision would work??

You can add to the fact that two of the saints up and coming stars come from the area of the lowly club Rochdale

Just for a change, I totally agree.
The "full" expansion dream of a SL made up of 5 UK clubs, 2/3 French Clubs and 4/5 N. American Clubs will destroy to game in the UK.
The already shrining player pool will shrink further still and as you rightly say, leave kids or, more importantly, the parents of those kids, looking for something else to do.
Many of the athlete's in RL could excel in other sports and it doesn't take too much for people to lose interest.

The idiots running the sport seem to believe that if we have clubs in New York and Ottowa, suddenly the game will explode and RL will take over the world and whilst accepting that their is a fair bit more of a "draw" from cities like New York, compared to Wigan, it just seems like pure fantasy.
No local juniors, no local players - just a bunch of mercenaries playing under an expensive flag and meanwhile the death of the academies and community work carried out over here.

The HKR comment came from Neil Hudgell not me? It's in the RL press. Please stop making things up about me -just stick to the debate. If you have an "open mind" then you need to discuss with me how the progressive introduction of North American and French clubs into Superleague leading to the relegation of English Superleague clubs has "positives"??

1. Every English Superleague club gone for an overseas club is one less development foundation and academy meaning less players.
2. Once four overseas clubs are in Superleague SKY's nine club rule is broken and the TV deal is gone.

Where are the positives. Danny Lockwood apparently sees them. He says "[iDo (the SL bosses) want SL to be considered a major and expanding player on the world stage, or are they happy hankering down in heir M62 echo chamber[/i?". Of course Mr. Lockwood can write what he wants it's his paper, it's just that he never explains how his vision would work. He does tell us this week that SKY don't want an M62 league and would prefer a world vision which is news to me as Lenegan says they must have at least 9 M62 clubs.

But it's OK Lockwood and Sadler championing a Transatlantic league, and even more OK if SKY really did want that and we went for that.

But the problem then is when the Rugby league loving money men walk away from Wigan, Warrington, Hull, Hull.K.R. Saints, Fartown, Castleford and Wakefield, and the foundations and academies collapse, how on earth do we get the investment then? Does Lockwood think SKY will back a Transatlantic deal and treble our money for it?? Or is he just dreaming out loud?

Bradford have not been in the top flight for some time and are still playing the game and junior rugby is still vibrant in Bradford, as well as Widnes Rochdale Oldam cumbria, you argument that if clubs are not in super league the player pool will dry up is flawed. This great myth than somehow in the past all local players just players for their local clubs is just a myth. Even in the 50-60s players where not always products of their local area and sides where not made up almost entirely of local only players.
We now have more than half our national side playing in the NRL anyway so i suspect player dream of an NRL contract at rather than running out for Fev or Dewsbury or Leigh.
The best way to improve participation is to make the game look more attractive on a national and global level not regressing back to just the M62, it may be 10-15 or even 20 years before North american clubs can produce even 4-5 players but so what, it will take time, in that time it gives players along the traditional areas an opportunity to play professional sport. Even if Ottawa New York sides are full of English players Thats 50-60 more full time players playing the game rather than part time, how can that be a bad thing.

As for your kids in Africa kicking a ball about, you clearly do not know how much FIFA pump into organised coaching and planning player pathways in these areas.

So, if you reduce the number of UK clubs in the top flight, do you believe that participation numbers in the UK will rise or fall.
The main issue here is that some appear willing to gamble that RL will grow in the long term if we fully immerse ourselves in the N. American experiment.
Aside form the logistical issues of a "Western World League", it seems reckless to gamble the house on it's success.
It's still mind boggling that we should replace half of the current league with untried and untested clubs that may or may not prosper.

Also, last time I looked, Bradford, despite being a fallen giant, still had aspirations of getting back to the top. However, if we replace half of the current league with overseas clubs, it will be blindingly obvious to many clubs that they will never return, which is a game changer.

Also, IF Sky are so bloody interested in the new world order and I'm not convinced, why didn't we and they, expand to 14 clubs and include Toronto and Toulouse at the last shake up.
There is only one reason - either Sky of SL (or both) weren't confident that this would help them, either in terms of generating revenue or due to logistics.
The opportunity was there and "we" chose to ignore it ??