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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: SmokeyTA "Where? when have the RFL stated that in the even of administration any other procedure would be followed other than what they have followed?'"


It (seems that it) isn't just administration though. It is a failed administration, the creditors get nowt, so from their POV he might as well have liquidated. If this level of failure isn't sufficient to prevent a new licence being granted or the old one being transferred, then... well there isn't a level of failure beyond that. So there are no meaningful sanctions.

Of course you can continue acting as if licensing is a meaningful process, but even as a proponent of it, you don't seem to believe it is any better than harmless. Nobody seems to think the fannying about with 'detailed assessment against key criteria' and 'ensuring standards' has any value anymore. So what's the point - it isn't placating fans of Championship clubs and it is a waste of time and energy for those in SL. Failure to admit that officially would be farcical, because it would be a statement so clearly at odds with obvious reality.

I can honestly only imagine the announcement of the outcome of a mini-licensing round being made by Comical Ali.

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I have only been wrong once and thats because I thought I was wrong but I was wrong I was right! Petty authoritarians aren’t man enough to challenge the actions of a person face to face; instead they incite a forum of rumour, innuendo and half truths, and impose rude sanctions to discourage those who dare question fairness. Anon.:simpsons/simp048.gif



Quote: SmokeyTA "
Our sport isn’t a joke, most fans aren’t even aware of this board never mind the continual moaning of those with vested interests.

If you remove the flatcappers spin and desperation to forward their interests by criticising the RFL, the process taken and the processes we have for franchising and P+R are obvious, clear and sensible. Not perfect, but far from a joke.'"


There are lots of vested interests in this game of "ours" and I would suggest they don't all rest with the "flatcappers". icon_wink.gif It's almost inevitable where money is involved.

Before the Sky money came along the game was on its knees. It's this money and the oxygen of TV coverage, not sudden good business acumen, that has seen the gap between SL and "the rest" grow to almost unreachable proportions.

It's worrying that without a sugar daddy, SL seems unsustainable, and lower leagues cannot hope to make the leap through the franchise ceiling.

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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: Mild Rover "It (seems that it) isn't just administration though. It is a failed administration, the creditors get nowt, so from their POV he might as well have liquidated. If this level of failure isn't sufficient to prevent a new licence being granted or the old one being transferred, then... well there isn't a level of failure beyond that. So there are no meaningful sanctions.'"
Removing a licence in some as a form of retribution would be nigh on the worst thing we could possibly doing. If your argument only comes down to wanting some form of symbolic blood letting, then it is a good thing the RFL have taken a more pragmatic approach.
Quote: Mild Rover "Of course you can continue acting as if licensing is a meaningful process, but even as a proponent of it, you don't seem to believe it is any better than harmless. Nobody seems to think the fannying about with 'detailed assessment against key criteria' and 'ensuring standards' has any value anymore. So what's the point - it isn't placating fans of Championship clubs and it is a waste of time and energy for those in SL. Failure to admit that officially would be farcical, because it would be a statement so clearly at odds with obvious reality.

I can honestly only imagine the announcement of the outcome of a mini-licensing round being made by Comical Ali.'"
Why isn’t it meaningful? Because we haven’t followed a rule in kicking Bradford out, even though that rule never existed? Why is removal of a franchise the only acceptable outcome for this scenario?

Removing Bradford and replacing them with a less suitable club wouldn’t mean we had a 'detailed assessment against key criteria' or that we were 'ensuring standards'. In fact it would mean the exact opposite. It would, in reality be exactly what the flatcappers didn’t want, what they argued against, it would be the decision on who gained a franchise, not based on an application, not based on the evidence presented, not based on which club is most suitable for SL, but which club it was politically expedient to pick. Yet because this would a ‘big’ club being damaged they have let their lust for schadenfreude cloud what they pretended were dearly held principles.

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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: Dreamer "There are lots of vested interests in this game of "ours" and I would suggest they don't all rest with the "flatcappers". There are some clubs who have been passengers in the games growth, others who have driven it. Your point is far too generalised, the growth at Leeds, Wigan, Wire and Hull is far too big (and sustainable) to have been driven solely by Sky or a sugar daddy. St’s have needed a lot of private investment but have little debt and a fantastic new facility. Les Catalans came from nowhere and built something outside SL. Lets not ignore where we have been successful, lets learn from it.

There are good businesses in SL, there are good businessmen, not enough but they are still there lets not pretend otherwise.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "Because, as was obvious to everyone else except a moron looking for evidence of his circular conspiracy nonsense, the SL clubs gave that power to the RFL.

Our sport isn’t a joke, most fans aren’t even aware of this board never mind the continual moaning of those with vested interests.

If you remove the flatcappers spin and desperation to forward their interests by criticising the RFL, the process taken and the processes we have for franchising and P+R are obvious, clear and sensible. Not perfect, but far from a joke.'"


Absolutely Smokey! Well said. Here's some irreleavnt stuff to back up your wisdomhttps://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/sportbulls/9906491.Creditors_in_desperate_fight_to_get___1_5m_owed_by_Bradford_Bulls/rl

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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You're on a wind up, yeah? edit, that question was for Smokey.

In case notunneccessary[/i fudge that is in prospect. They can achieve the same end so much more easily and logically. Yeah, basically it's the contradiction/paradox I hate.

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I have only been wrong once and thats because I thought I was wrong but I was wrong I was right! Petty authoritarians aren’t man enough to challenge the actions of a person face to face; instead they incite a forum of rumour, innuendo and half truths, and impose rude sanctions to discourage those who dare question fairness. Anon.:simpsons/simp048.gif



Quote: SmokeyTA "There are some clubs who have been passengers in the games growth, others who have driven it. Your point is far too generalised, the growth at Leeds, Wigan, Wire and Hull is far too big (and sustainable) to have been driven solely by Sky or a sugar daddy. St’s have needed a lot of private investment but have little debt and a fantastic new facility. Les Catalans came from nowhere and built something outside SL. Lets not ignore where we have been successful, lets learn from it.

There are good businesses in SL, there are good businessmen, not enough but they are still there lets not pretend otherwise.'"


Let's face it, 12 months ago you would have put Bradford on that list icon_wink.gif

As far as I can see there is only one decent BUSINESS model in SL and that's Leeds. (I'm open to being shot down here as I've only cursory knowledge of the others)

The chunk of Sky money and TV coverage is the honey pot. There are to few businessmen running their clubs as genuinely good businesses, let's not pretend otherwise icon_wink.gif

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Quote: littlerich "Absolutely Smokey! Well said. Here's some irreleavnt stuff to back up your wisdomhttps://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/sport/sportbulls/9906491.Creditors_in_desperate_fight_to_get___1_5m_owed_by_Bradford_Bulls/rl'"
Oh I don't know.
As an honest British taxpayer I'm overjoyed that the Bradford Bulls have been able to stick 2 fingers up over £1/2M of MY money whilst being able to carry on as if nothing has happened. d040.gif

I'll also be just as happy if Sport England reduce our funding when we as a sport are seen to just shrug our shoulders over it.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "Removing a licence in some as a form of retribution would be nigh on the worst thing we could possibly doing. If your argument only comes down to wanting some form of symbolic blood letting, then it is a good thing the RFL have taken a more pragmatic approach.
Why isn’t it meaningful? Because we haven’t followed a rule in kicking Bradford out, even though that rule never existed? Why is removal of a franchise the only acceptable outcome for this scenario?

Removing Bradford and replacing them with a less suitable club wouldn’t mean we had a 'detailed assessment against key criteria' or that we were 'ensuring standards'. In fact it would mean the exact opposite. It would, in reality be exactly what the flatcappers didn’t want, what they argued against, it would be the decision on who gained a franchise, not based on an application, not based on the evidence presented, not based on which club is most suitable for SL, but which club it was politically expedient to pick. Yet because this would a ‘big’ club being damaged they have let their lust for schadenfreude cloud what they pretended were dearly held principles.'"


What you seem to be saying in your last paragraph, is that, if one of the bigger names breaks the rules (although they appear to be guidelines as opposed to rules), then we shouldn't even dream of demoting them, because thier likely replacement maynot have the same "draw".
Conversely, had this circumstance bestowed itself on one of the "lesser" clubs, would you be in favour of the same level of "protection".

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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: Mild Rover "You're on a wind up, yeah? edit, that question was for Smokey.

In case notOk, so how would demoting Bradford be ‘honest’?
Quote: Mild Rover "2. No-new-licence is the only acceptable outcome within the system of licensing because this is as bad as it gets within that framework. If not now, then when? If 'never', then why bother?'"

When there is someone better? Im not sure why you have decided a club needs to be demoted. Surely It would be a good thing if they didnt.
Quote: Mild Rover "3. I'm not saying one way or the other whether the Bulls should be in SL. But if they are then we need to bin off licensing, which it turns out is rubbish anyway because it falls between stools. Then we can have franchising or start again with some form of P&R - I'm not particularly advocating either, just asking that they're honest about what they do.
4. I'm using 'licensing' to refer to the system we (supposedly) have and 'franchising' to refer to a closed-shop more NRL type approach. You're conflating the two, which may lead to misunderstanding.'"
I cant agree that the change you are talking about is that big. I see it as tinkering with the existing system rather than a new one.
Quote: Mild Rover "5. It's not about schadenfreude. From a selfish POV, the security of franchising would be great for Hull KR. My horror isn't as a Hull KR fan or Bradford-hater (which I'm not), but at the horrible and, crucially, [iunneccessary[/i fudge that is in prospect. They can achieve the same end so much more easily and logically. Yeah, basically it's the contradiction/paradox I hate.'"

Im not sure there is a contradiction in what is happening.

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//www.pngnrlbid.com [quote="bUsTiNyAbALLs":9q9d2t35]Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.[/quote:9q9d2t35] [quote="vastman":9q9d2t35]My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.[/quote:9q9d2t35]:



Quote: wrencat1873 "What you seem to be saying in your last paragraph, is that, if one of the bigger names breaks the rules (although they appear to be guidelines as opposed to rules), then we shouldn't even dream of demoting them, because thier likely replacement maynot have the same "draw".
Conversely, had this circumstance bestowed itself on one of the "lesser" clubs, would you be in favour of the same level of "protection".'"

The honest answer is, it depends.

Some clubs bring more to SL than others.

If the smaller/lower SL clubs want the same protection as the likes of Bradford, then its easy, get the crowds, get the youth, get the success and visibility Bradford have. If you are a smaller/lower SL club, if you are getting low crowds, have plenty of overseas players, have poor facilities, struggle on and off the pitch, then you are bringing less to the table and your position is less secure. And yes, that includes London etc.

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So, let me get this right – and please interject if I’m incorrect.

Bradford have been bought for circa £150k – who gets that money?

The administrators tab is around £170k, does this come out of the £150k & if so where does the shortfall come from?

One more thing, presumably the RFL won’t have got any rent money this year, will they be in the same position as the rest of the Creditors getting a few pence in the pound or will the debt carry over to the new owners?

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I wonder how the ripples will effect other clubs cashflow if the RFL are seen to be laughing in the faces of those owed money eg a club may order 5000 pies for a game, baker says not a problem but I will only deliver them once the money has cleared due to the BB scenario, will banks withdraw all overdrafts without PG's? Grants have been mentioned, will it affect them?

Of course our friendly RFL rep will have a spin on this that involves no answers.

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Quote: SmokeyTA "The honest answer is, it depends.

Some clubs bring more to SL than others.

If the smaller/lower SL clubs want the same protection as the likes of Bradford, then its easy, get the crowds, get the youth, get the success and visibility Bradford have. If you are a smaller/lower SL club, if you are getting low crowds, have plenty of overseas players, have poor facilities, struggle on and off the pitch, then you are bringing less to the table and your position is less secure. And yes, that includes London etc.'"


The problem is, Bradford are, or are supposed to be a flagship club. Do the smaller do what Bradford have done? Overspend. Sell their product cheaper than a netto basket?

Bradford have brought success to their own table but a pile of crap and debt to the RFL's. But sshhhhhhh, they're Bradford Big Balls - 10,000 average per home game. Untouchable.

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'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png

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Quote: SmokeyTA "Ok, so how would demoting Bradford be ‘honest’?'"


Because they failed utterly on the very criterion on which licensing is primarily based.

Quote: SmokeyTA " Im not sure why you have decided a club needs to be demoted. Surely It would be a good thing if they didnt.'"


I didn't, the principles of licensing did. You're right though, perhaps it would be better if Bradford were given a place in SL for next season. And we can do that - we just have abandon those principles and find some new ones. Little bit embarrassing, but that's life. Trying to retain Bradford in SL (assuming, as always, a newco) and the principles of licensing, is doomed to failure. Do it quick and clean or let it wither away - either way it'd be over. Eventually it'll need replacing - why wait?


Quote: SmokeyTA "I cant agree that the change you are talking about is that big. I see it as tinkering with the existing system rather than a new one.'"


Tinkering it to death. The vote to change the rules so that entering administration was only a points deduction and a black mark was a major retreat. This would be surrender, however they try to dress it up. Folk aren't daft. Well not [ithat[/i daft anyway.

Quote: SmokeyTA "Im not sure there is a contradiction in what is happening.'"


Think about it like this. Licensing moved the emphasis from how the team performed each year to how the club performed over 3-year cycles.
Imagine under a system of P&R, straightforward 1 up, 1 down, a team gets relegated. But they say, 'actually we're not that bad, we just had a rubbish coach, but we've sacked and replaced him now and we'd to like to stay up'. The governing body thinks this team might indeed get better under their new coach, so they come up with an innovation - a play-off with the winner of the second division. This would likely provoke some scepticism, and if they claimed that the system hadn't in fact changed and they would still be standing by the principles of 1 up, 1 down the scepticism would become incredulity. The governing body have got stuck trying to avoid an unwanted outcome of its own rules, and still wanting people to believe that they are enforcing them in an equitable manner. They can't - they have to live with the outcome (a principled approach) or be honest about changing the rules (a pragmatic approach), it is one or t'other.

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SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington-Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 26 1010 262 748 50
Bradford 27 703 399 304 36
Toulouse 25 744 368 376 35
York 27 655 469 186 30
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Swinton 27 474 670 -196 18
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 0 0 0 0 0
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