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Quote: DGM "A prime example is the Salary Cap. It's gone backwards vs Inflation over the past 15 years or so, and alarmingly backwards compared to the NRL & Union. This is because we don't have enough clubs that generate the required revenue levels to enable us to raise the cap, those clubs have stood still year after year, and therefore other clubs are held back to a pitiful c£1.8m salary cap.'"


The salary cap should never have stood still and it's fundamentally wrong for clubs to be cutting their spend on wages (in real terms).
However, this is something voted on by ALL clubs and not determined just by Wakefield.
Perhaps we should name and shame those who have voted against an increase.

Also, it's interesting just how few clubs have gone fore marque players.
You would have thought that all of the clubs who have been "held back", would have jumped at this option ??

It's really easy to scapegoat certain clubs and blame them for some of the games failings.
However, it's the game as a whole that is struggling and if you jettison the lower income clube, will it really take away the "drag" on the game, I dont think so.

Worth remembering that 2 of the clubs with shiny new (ish) stadia are among the worst supported clubs in SL
Although, IF we end up with the new world order (5 English, 4/5 N.American and 2 French clubs) perhaps you may be able to, once again, try and jettison those unfashionable clubs.

Will this be moving the game forward or destroying the very game that our predecessors fought so hard to create.
We may actually be fulfilling the Union boys dreams, without them actually dirtying their hands.

5 pro clubs in the UK would be a major backward step as there would be little left for anyone else.
It like a Tory power grab.

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Quote: wrencat1873 "The salary cap should never have stood still and it's fundamentally wrong for clubs to be cutting their spend on wages (in real terms).
However, this is something voted on by ALL clubs and not determined just by Wakefield.
Perhaps we should name and shame those who have voted against an increase.

Also, it's interesting just how few clubs have gone fore marque players.
You would have thought that all of the clubs who have been "held back", would have jumped at this option ??

It's really easy to scapegoat certain clubs and blame them for some of the games failings.
However, it's the game as a whole that is struggling and if you jettison the lower income clube, will it really take away the "drag" on the game, I dont think so.

Worth remembering that 2 of the clubs with shiny new (ish) stadia are among the worst supported clubs in SL
Although, IF we end up with the new world order (5 English, 4/5 N.American and 2 French clubs) perhaps you may be able to, once again, try and jettison those unfashionable clubs.

Will this be moving the game forward or destroying the very game that our predecessors fought so hard to create.
We may actually be fulfilling the Union boys dreams, without them actually dirtying their hands.

5 pro clubs in the UK would be a major backward step as there would be little left for anyone else.
It like a Tory power grab
.'"


What are you waffling on about?

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Quote: DGM "What are you waffling on about?'"


It may be waffle but, if you try and work out where "we" are heading, it wont be too far off the mark.
Unless we are going to expand SL to 16/18 clubs, the inclusion of 4/5 N.American clubs, plus 2 from France, necessarily means cutting the number of British clubs in SL.
What do you think would happen to clubs in "The Championship" with all of the money being sucked in by the few "top" UK clubs.

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: wrencat1873 "Also, it's interesting just how few clubs have gone fore marque players.
You would have thought that all of the clubs who have been "held back", would have jumped at this option ??
'"


There are probably a few reasons, but it comes down to the downward pressure on standards, rather than an upwards one in my view.

Many clubs rely on the benevolence of their owner. Neil Hudgell already underwrites many of Hull KR's operating costs and Ken Davy underwrites Huddersfield's costs, and so they are not going to vote in a way that pushes that cost liability upwards as they try to compete with Hull FC or Leeds. It's beneficial for both of them to vote in a way that pushes Hull FC's and Leeds' spending power downwards, because it's easier to do that than to invest in improving their own.

The result of that is that Leeds and Hull FC, as successful clubs, have no need to take on the additional costs of a marquee player (and no doubt the various challenges that come with one). They're already successful clubs, they still have better squads than most of the league, so the need to increase their cost base isn't there. They don't need to go out and spend a fortune on Cooper Cronk or Jonathan Thurston, because they can beat the competition with Richie Myler and Mark Sneyd (and in the case of Leeds at least, maintain a high statium utilisation rate).

But whilst that's good for the bottom line, it's not necessarily good for the top line, and that's also important. If the standard of the product declines and the top talent continues to leave, then it makes the product less attractive, crowds and commercial revenue suffers, and participation declines.

And that creates the situation that we're in now

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Quote: wrencat1873 "It may be waffle but, if you try and work out where "we" are heading, it wont be too far off the mark.
Unless we are going to expand SL to 16/18 clubs, the inclusion of 4/5 N.American clubs, plus 2 from France, necessarily means cutting the number of British clubs in SL.
What do you think would happen to clubs in "The Championship" with all of the money being sucked in by the few "top" UK clubs.'"


It's complete waffle.

You're scaremongering over a fictitious league structure that you've made up to try and add ammunition to your already weak argument.

Superleague has ONE French club. The Championship has ONE French club and ONE North American club, only one of which is realistically in a position to challenge for SL. That's it.

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The OP pointed towards a prediction of Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto, New York and Perth (Australia) in SL within the next five years, which would mean 7 UK teams if SL stays as a 12 club league. It all sounds a bit wacky to have a competition playing games every week spread across three continents and 5 different countries.

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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: HXSparky "The OP pointed towards a prediction of Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto, New York and Perth (Australia) in SL within the next five years, which would mean 7 UK teams if SL stays as a 12 club league. It all sounds a bit wacky to have a competition playing games every week spread across three continents and 5 different countries.'"


So wacky, that rugby union has almost exactly that - teams in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Africa and Argentina.

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Which clubs have used the marquee player allowance? How do you know only a few clubs have used it?

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Quote: Sir Kevin Sinfield "Which clubs have used the marquee player allowance? How do you know only a few clubs have used it?'"


Hull used it on Pritchard, but currently don't use it.

Wigan I believe use it on Tomkins, and I think Williams (you can have two marquee players now).

Warrington on Sandow? Koukash pushed for it, but not sure Salford used it?

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Wire probably using it on Roberts.
Saints are using it on Barba (and possibly Roby?).

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Quote: DGM "It's complete waffle.

You're scaremongering over a fictitious league structure that you've made up to try and add ammunition to your already weak argument.

Superleague has ONE French club. The Championship has ONE French club and ONE North American club, only one of which is realistically in a position to challenge for SL. That's it.'"


Call it scaremongering if you wish but, there are 4 clubs mentioned in the thread title (including Catalan), which is 3 more than we currently have in SL.
Even if we imagine these 3 making it into SL, that necessarily means the loss of 3 British clubs and I'm sure that you are aware of some of the additional N. American clubs being banded about.
Scaremongering is not the objective here, it's to point out the bleeding obvious and to try to encourage people to think about what the future may hold, rather than just blindly accept that the course that we APPEAR to be on is the right one.
Of course, there are some bright people in the world and they may have this absolutely on the money. However, the point remains, is this the right thing for the game, the best option for Super League and apart from helping get RL established in N.America, which is an obvious benefit, is the "plan", the best plan for the game of RL ?

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Quote: wrencat1873 "Call it scaremongering if you wish but, there are 4 clubs mentioned in the thread title (including Catalan), which is 2 more than we currently have in SL.
Even if we imagine these 3 making it into SL, that necessarily means the loss of 3 British clubs and I'm sure that you are aware of some of the additional N. American clubs being banded about.
Scaremongering is not the objective here, it's to point out the bleeding obvious and to try to encourage people to think about what the future may hold, rather than just blindly accept that the course that we APPEAR to be on is the right one.
Of course, there are some bright people in the world and they may have this absolutely on the money. However, the point remains, is this the right thing for the game, the best option for Super League and apart from helping get RL established in N.America, which is an obvious benefit, is the "plan", the best plan for the game of RL ?'"


But there isn’t a plan. Other than some expressions of interest, nothing formal has been announced, let alone a 5 NA club & 2 French Club SL. They haven’t even decided what to do in 2019 yet!

So yes, you creating some imaginary league using various spurious assumptions to show a worse-case scenario is scaremongering.

Also, why would 3 British clubs be “lost”? Does your imaginary league structure not have P&R? Did the introduction of Catalans see a British club fold? What do you mean?

I think you’re getting worked up over absolutely nothing.

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Quote: DGM "But there isn’t a plan. Other than some expressions of interest, nothing formal has been announced, let alone a 5 NA club & 2 French Club SL. They haven’t even decided what to do in 2019 yet!

So yes, you creating some imaginary league using various spurious assumptions to show a worse-case scenario is scaremongering.

Also, why would 3 British clubs be “lost”? Does your imaginary league structure not have P&R? Did the introduction of Catalans see a British club fold? What do you mean?

I think you’re getting worked up over absolutely nothing.'"


So, we have one of the most influential chairman (maybe the most influential) in SL predicting these clubs in SL, some would call this signposting and lets face it, there is no point whatsoever in Toulouse, Toronto and New York joining the comp if they are not going to make it into SL, absolutely none. For a start, without a share of Sky monies, they would be commercially blowing their brains out.
So call it imaginary but, as I say, there is just no point in them starting the venture unless they believe that they will make it into SL.
You mention P/R but, this doesn't really fit with expanding the game and it never has.
Although there were gaping holes in the franchise model used previously, there is no doubt that some kind of Franchise system, without the threat of relegation, is the right model for expanding the game.
Catalan may be in peril at the moment but, if they hadn't been exempt from relegation at the outset, they simply wouldn't have become established in SL and although they are hardly an expansion club, you only have to look at Leigh for an example of what may happen under the current system (or any other P/R based model) and this could possibly kill the ambitions of the new wannabe's.
You mention that we havent decided on the structure for 2019 and one can only wonder why ??
It's mickey poor and the sensible thing to do, would be for the RFL to come out now and say no change for next season but they will look at 2020 for any possible change and then have the balls to tell people what their ambitions are for the game and how they expect any changes to affect those involved.

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Quote: Lebron James "So there we have it. Toronto are already a bigger club than Wakefield and Leigh lol

Regards

King James'"

& you are already a bigger D!CK than John Holmes !

Regards

Prince Albert

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Quote: bramleyrhino "There are probably a few reasons, but it comes down to the downward pressure on standards, rather than an upwards one in my view.

Many clubs rely on the benevolence of their owner. Neil Hudgell already underwrites many of Hull KR's operating costs and Ken Davy underwrites Huddersfield's costs, and so they are not going to vote in a way that pushes that cost liability upwards as they try to compete with Hull FC or Leeds. It's beneficial for both of them to vote in a way that pushes Hull FC's and Leeds' spending power downwards, because it's easier to do that than to invest in improving their own.

The result of that is that Leeds and Hull FC, as successful clubs, have no need to take on the additional costs of a marquee player (and no doubt the various challenges that come with one). They're already successful clubs, they still have better squads than most of the league, so the need to increase their cost base isn't there. They don't need to go out and spend a fortune on Cooper Cronk or Jonathan Thurston, because they can beat the competition with Richie Myler and Mark Sneyd (and in the case of Leeds at least, maintain a high statium utilisation rate).

But whilst that's good for the bottom line, it's not necessarily good for the top line, and that's also important. If the standard of the product declines and the top talent continues to leave, then it makes the product less attractive, crowds and commercial revenue suffers, and participation declines.

And that creates the situation that we're in now'"


Honestly among the most stupid thing iv read on rlfans ever, your point is something like this......

Big clubs: “we need a marquee signing rule so we can attract star names to super league to get more people watching and drive up standards”

The league votes to allow not one but 2 marquee signings

“we don’t need a marquee signing because we can win the competition without it” icon_lol.gif

Just admit that despite the rule coming in standards haven’t shot up that much. The only true marquee signings since the rule had been in place are Barba, maybe Roberts and Tomkins and I remember the Wigan chairman saying tomkins coming wasn’t dependent on the marquee rule coming in. All this moaning about the salary cap for what ??? So Jimmy Keinhorst can double his wage. Before we up the sc clubs should be taking advantage of the marquee rule.

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