Wigan are pretty big overachievers then...

Then why are the SL chairmen falling over themselves to get rid of it?

Just out of interest ( for the umpteenth time of asking) which club do you go and watch through the turnstiles? There's no ulterior motive in asking this question - I'm just interested. If you don't ever attend matches, that's OK too - I won't make a disparaging comment.

I think the only reason we are questoining the whole system is because of the markets crashing a few years ago. With the amount of money about for sponsorships etc being well down on the last decade we've hit a bit of a stumbling point.

It may well be that licensing has saved Super League, without it club may have well over extended themselves and gone to the wall, although, some still did.

I'm still not sure the british psyche is setup for franchising the way it is in the US and Australia. I'm also not sure quotas are important now the Aussie Dollar is stronger, maybe with a much more market influenced cap & quota system there would be no need for a licence system, it would just work out

Quote jeffvickers="jeffvickers"Town Populations (2001 census) Current League Standings Super League 1. Leeds 750,700 2. Sheffield 551,800 3. Doncaster 302,402 4. Bradford 293,717 5. Borough of Haringey (Skolars) 255,500 6. Warrington 202,700 7. York 197,800 8. Borough of Richmond (Broncos) 187,500 9. Oxford 150,200 10. Huddersfield 146,234 11. Hull 128,050 12. Hull KR 128,050 13. Perpignan 120,100 (2009) 14. Cheltenham (Gloucestershire All-Golds) 115,600 Championship 1. Oldham 103,544 2. St. Helens 102,629 3. Rochdale 95,796 4. Halifax 82,056 5. Wigan 81,203 6. Hemel Hempstead 81,143 7. Gateshead 78,403 8. Wakefield 76,886 9. Salford 72,750 10. Barrow 69,087 11. Hunslet 59,877 12. Widnes 58,300 13. Dewsbury 54,341 14. Keighley 51,429 Championship One 1. Batley 49,448 2. Leigh 43,006 3. Crusaders (Wrexham) 42,576 4. Swinton 41,347 5. Castleford 37,713 6. Whitehaven 25,032 7. Workington 24,295 8. Neath (South Wales) 19,258 9. Featherstone 15,244'" Salford city's population in 2001 was 217200 according to the 2011 census it's risen upto 233900. www.salford.gov.uk/census2011.htm

Quote jeffvickers="jeffvickers"Town Populations (2001 census) Current League Standings Super League 1. Leeds 750,700 2. Sheffield 551,800 3. Doncaster 302,402 4. Bradford 293,717 5. Borough of Haringey (Skolars) 255,500 6. Warrington 202,700 7. York 197,800 8. Borough of Richmond (Broncos) 187,500 9. Oxford 150,200 10. Huddersfield 146,234 11. Hull 128,050 12. Hull KR 128,050 13. Perpignan 120,100 (2009) 14. Cheltenham (Gloucestershire All-Golds) 115,600 Championship 1. Oldham 103,544 2. St. Helens 102,629 3. Rochdale 95,796 4. Halifax 82,056 5. Wigan 81,203 6. Hemel Hempstead 81,143 7. Gateshead 78,403 8. Wakefield 76,886 9. Salford 72,750 10. Barrow 69,087 11. Hunslet 59,877 12. Widnes 58,300 13. Dewsbury 54,341 14. Keighley 51,429 Championship One 1. Batley 49,448 2. Leigh 43,006 3. Crusaders (Wrexham) 42,576 4. Swinton 41,347 5. Castleford 37,713 6. Whitehaven 25,032 7. Workington 24,295 8. Neath (South Wales) 19,258 9. Featherstone 15,244'" Salford city's population in 2001 was 217200 according to the 2011 census it's risen upto 233900. www.salford.gov.uk/census2011.htm

Quote RED LEAGUE="RED LEAGUE"Salford city's population in 2001 was 217200 according to the 2011 census it's risen upto 233900. www.salford.gov.uk/census2011.htm'" Not something I'd have admitted considering your paltry crowds.

Quote RED LEAGUE="RED LEAGUE"Salford city's population in 2001 was 217200 according to the 2011 census it's risen upto 233900. www.salford.gov.uk/census2011.htm'" Not something I'd have admitted considering your paltry crowds.

Why? I'm not ashamed of our crowds at the moment? We're getting the attendances that the current team deserves, you don't get 10000+ sell outs watching bottom of the table teams.

I'd be more worried of I was a Huddersfield fan, 2nd in the league only 1 point of top, a fiver a ticket for the Catalan game and still only manage to attract 5000. Put this way if Salford were in their position we'd attract a lot lot more than 5000.

The population of the town of Doncaster is 67,000 , its a little disingenuous to use "boroughs" of London for one clubs and artificial "metropolitan areas" for others...if you used the same rules for everyone Hull would have a population of 600,000 and Wigan and Leigh 318,000...and why split the City of Hull straight down the middle...you really think that is indicative..???

Prevents or allows?

I do agree, Cas Tigers stadium is awful, dirty and not a good advert for the league at all in regards to its look. If it were down to atmosphere though we'd be high up there. I pray for the day we can build a new stadium.

Pros since licensing....

Huddersfield are pushing on on field. I also see what they do off field with kids in the area and in years to come believe their fan base will drastically improve.

Catalan although on a dip at the moment are a clear show that licensing is working. They're pushing further up the table each year.

Hull KR are also the same along with Wakefield who are slowly but surely getting more consistent and pushing for regular top 8 places.

Widnes would have been the same as Cas; a regulation yoyo team without licensing.

I'm not too informed about how performance is assessed and developed within the RFL, but I do think it is fair to say that they have failed to realise the potential of this sport and continue to do so.

Tinkering with the product is not going to solve the wider or most pressing issues which we have with Rugby League in this country.

Fundamentally, there isn't anything wrong with the product. I know that the current play off system and the abolition of promotion and relegation are areas in which a lot of people would like to see a change, but I'm not sure you can pin the attendance/media coverage/financial problems on either of these points.

Take Rugby Union as an example, this attracts a huge audience of people from all over the world. I don't believe that anyone can argue that the actual product, the game of Rugby itself, is of a quality and standard which merits an audience so much bigger than Rugby League. There is a minority of Rugby Union fans who have played or understand the game to a level where they can appreciate ruck/maul/lineout/scrum plays for what they are, to the majority of fans aren't able to identify good technical displays in these areas. So what attracts them to the game? What attracts them to part with significant sums of money to go to Test Matches or Finals in huge numbers? It has to be down to the marketing of the product.

The RFL have failed, are failing and will continue to fail in this department. We have a fantastic product which does not need to change, the people responsible who run the game does.

According to wikipedia In 2001 Leeds' main urban subdivision had a population of 443,247 not 750,700

Couldn't agree more. Sometimes I think the people running the game have more of a flat cap vision for the game than the southern media!

The fact we can't attract a decent sponsor for SL is a disgrace and in itself should be enough to see heads roll.

We have a great product with terrible management.

We have a good on-field product, but are terrible at almost everything off the pitch. Poor stadia, poor marketing, poor attitudes, poor community involvement, poor management and poor media engagement. Some of it is the RFL at governing body level, but an awful lot of the problems are lower down the system.

The stadia is a difficult issue due to the high costs involved, however I would say that if clubs had invested in their stadium and facilities 30 years ago when there was a bit more money floating around, then there wouldn't be such big problems today.

The marketing from clubs is awful. Just awful. And it's not all about money, half the time it seems like clubs simply can't be d to try and attract new fans.

The attitudes at most clubs stinks. It's a mix flat-capped tery, a slavish obsession with "the past" when everything was apparently brilliant, and amateurism. The lack of clubs willing to attend best practice seminars for instance.

There is so much more clubs could be doing in their local communities. Clubs seem to think sending a couple of players to a local amateur a couple of times a season is enough. It's not, nowhere near. Engage with the community, get regularly into schools, colleges, universities etc. We often bemoan the fact that many RL clubs are based in small towns yet the clubs still don't properly engage with their local area.

The management of many RL clubs is terrible, based either on 1 mans ego, or being run like an amateur club on steroids. Clubs are in desperate need of professional management. I think this would avoid many other problems.

There are things the RFL could do to help, but I'm of the belief the main problems in the game can be solved by the clubs themselves.
There is of course then the amateur game, which in Yorkshire at least is often a disincentive to engage with rugby league for most people.