| FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Deliberate Knock On |
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| Quote: tb "A thread on, say "Ah Van's deliberate knock-on" would never reach the legendary stature of "Joynt's Voluntary Tackle". ...'"
Not even if we called it, say, "Ah Van to be alone" ? |
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| Quote: rich86 "What I struggle with is why anybody would deliberately knock on and what advantage you get from it?'"
Maybe a pecuniary one |
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| Quote: tb "A thread on, say "Ah Van's deliberate knock-on" would never reach the legendary stature of "Joynt's Voluntary Tackle". Just get used to it ![]()
When was the last post on that thread?
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I don't know when the last post was, but it seemed to go on for years. But you may be missing the point: after the first week or two, the one subject that was NOT discussed on the JVT thread was Joyn'ts voluntary tackle.
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "The rule states that a player will be penalised for deliberately knocking on or passing forward. This does not mean it will be a penalty, which is what I think the OP wanted to know. He will be penalised by way of a scrum with head and feed to the opposition.
'"
The rules do state a penalty will be given for a deliberate knock-on
"A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on"
penalise is defined as
"is to award a penalty kick against an offending player"
Awarding a scrum is just a means of restarting play, if a player following the 6th PTB kicks the ball outide his 20m and the ball goes out of play on 30 metres from the opponents try-line, would that player be said to be penalised? Because the opposition would be given the feed at the scrum.
The situation is clear deliberate knock-on and deliberate forward pass rules should be wiped from the rule book. The former was first introduced over 100 years ago. |
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "I don't know when the last post was, but it seemed to go on for years. But you may be missing the point
Not at all FA, was just wondering....
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Twenty or thirty years ago aussie referees regularly awarded penalties for 'deliberate' forward passes.
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I wouldn't mind it being used to stop this habit of the marker wildly slapping at the ball at the PTB which seems to be in vogue of late.
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At Salford, I vaguely remember Steve Gibson being sin-binned for a deliberate knock-on.
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Not quite the same, but what happens if an attacking player decides to throw the ball over the defensive line, and regain it himself on the other side, without it touching any defenders? Is that allowed?
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I know the forum rules frown in links but I think here it helps...
www.therfl.co.uk/a_guide_to_the_ ... icial_laws
Laws state:-
"Once play has started any player who is on side or not out of play can run with the ball kick it in any direction and throw or knock it in any direction other than towards his opponents’ dead ball line" which is a catch all clause..
1. A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on or passes forward.
2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed. Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.
3. To charge-down a kick is permissible and is not a knock-on.
4. It is illegal to head the ball in a forward direction.
1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.
A forward pass in a passing movement is invariably caused by misjudgment and is rarely a deliberate offence. Play is restarted with a scrum after an accidental infringement.
If the Referee is of the opinion that a player in giving a forward pass must have been well aware that the catcher was in front of him then the referee is justified in ruling that the ball has been deliberately thrown forward.
If the ball is passed correctly but bounces forward or is blown forward by the wind, there is no infringement and play should continue. (This one amazed me)
There are a few remnants that need tidying...voluntary tackle, deliberate forward pass, and not stopping the clock after tries/for penalties but the laws book is very good!
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I know the forum rules frown in links but I think here it helps...
www.therfl.co.uk/a_guide_to_the_ ... icial_laws
Laws state:-
"Once play has started any player who is on side or not out of play can run with the ball kick it in any direction and throw or knock it in any direction other than towards his opponents’ dead ball line" which is a catch all clause..
1. A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on or passes forward.
2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed. Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.
3. To charge-down a kick is permissible and is not a knock-on.
4. It is illegal to head the ball in a forward direction.
1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.
A forward pass in a passing movement is invariably caused by misjudgment and is rarely a deliberate offence. Play is restarted with a scrum after an accidental infringement.
If the Referee is of the opinion that a player in giving a forward pass must have been well aware that the catcher was in front of him then the referee is justified in ruling that the ball has been deliberately thrown forward.
If the ball is passed correctly but bounces forward or is blown forward by the wind, there is no infringement and play should continue. (This one amazed me)
There are a few remnants that need tidying...voluntary tackle, deliberate forward pass, and not stopping the clock after tries/for penalties but the laws book is very good!
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| Quote: Thoth "The rules do state a penalty will be given for a deliberate knock-on
"A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on"
penalise is defined as
"is to award a penalty kick against an offending player"
Awarding a scrum is just a means of restarting play, if a player following the 6th PTB kicks the ball outide his 20m and the ball goes out of play on 30 metres from the opponents try-line, would that player be said to be penalised? Because the opposition would be given the feed at the scrum.
The situation is clear deliberate knock-on and deliberate forward pass rules should be wiped from the rule book. The former was first introduced over 100 years ago.'"
I suggest you read my post again as you aren't saying anything different. What I did say was that in most cases the officials would assume that the player was making an attempt to catch the ball and not deliberately knocking it to ground. As I said, if the player deliberately knocks on - including where the ball never actually hits the ground - then yes it is a penalty.
There is no reason why the rules should be removed. There are some cases where they should be applied, though. Quite regularly we do see what I would say are deliberate forward passes. But "deliberate" is as defined in the laws, and is a ref's judgment call. |
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| Quote: Dave Lister "Not quite the same, but what happens if an attacking player decides to throw the ball over the defensive line, and regain it himself on the other side, without it touching any defenders? Is that allowed?'"
No. That's a deliberate forward pass, because it is a throw towards the opponents' dead ball line, and done intentionally. The offence is committed as soon as the ball leaves the hand i.e. being deliberately thrown forward so whether you intend to catch it yourself, or someone else to, is beside the point. |
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If you want to see a deliberate 'forward pass' visit that site where you can watch videos that for some unknown reason we must never mention and type in "Brian O'Driscoll moment of genius "
Fantastic stuff.
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| Quote: Thoth "As joetwizzy says rule exists to counter defending players deciding to knock-on deliberately instead of intercepting a pass by catching the ball.
Saddened I can see your point but this would have been extremely dangerous to do especially before limited tackles were brought in given turnover ball often relults in line breaks or overlaps.
I thought this rule was brought in a very long time ago (as in the early part of the 20th century), but rarely seems to be penalised.'"
Could it not be argued that a player is trying to intercept rather than knock the ball out of the way in a pass?
I think it's more to do with the old scrums. |
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