Except there aren't enough full time clubs for two full time divisions. And it doesn't adress the alleged problems caused by no P&R between pro & semi pro comps - just moves the position of alleged closed door.

But yes, if SL grows to a size where it can be split into divisions, I'd be happy. Fans of semi-pro clubs (and others) would still be complaining. And I'd still oppose ateempts to drag the sport backwards.

I'll tell you what facts I can recognise, the Champiionship clubs are in the state they're in as far as standards of play go because despite all the promises in 1995 the SL clubs cut them adrift. And then refused them access to the elite league. What we have today - only 3 -4 clubs SL really competitive is the result.
I reckon that Fev, Fax, Batley or Leigh could, even part time give a good account of themselves against the lower end of SL. Return to some form of P&R with caveats as far as ground facilities etc if you like, but the main qualification must be "what happens on the field of play" as the High Court has it in the London Welsh case. If we do that there may be some rough times ahead for the promoted clubs, and a bit of turbulence, but eventually we'll have a robust well supported game with regular movements between two divisions. That is the only way forward, disaster is looming for Bradford, and it's rumoured for Salford and Cas, possilbly others. Why? Because at this point in the season their fans have no reason to part with their hard earned to watch their team get hammered by the top teams week in week out. And games against lower opposition are totally meaningless. Plus how long can teams like Fev or Fax be expected to maintain teams at the top of their division? How long can the fans of these teams be expected to fork out for meaningless cricket scores like 69 -0 against Hunslet. And yet if they do fall from grace and another team takes over at the top, they'll have to get the qualifying results all over again. Plus the farce last year of Widnes going through the motions, and Wakey expecting to be dropped only to be told at the last knockings they were in because Crusaders, who'd signed players for the next season were dropping out should be avoided at all costs.

errm. wow. just wow.

but you accept that there's no such thing in cricket as promotion and relegation between the Minor Counties Championship (semi pro) and the County Championship (pro)?

When are you going to start telling us the facts you recognise? you said you would then seemed to list a load of opinion, most of which didnt make sense.

Anyone got any stats on 2nd tier crowds pre and post franchising?

It is possible to get the best of P&R but "protect" new teams from yoyoing.

If you accept the basic premise that 1 championship side HAS THE CHANCE of going up each year, (so lets say the GF winners).
Firstly they only get the chance to go up IF they meet certain ground safety requirement/facilities etc.

You then get a number of options:-
1) they play the bottom placed side in SL in a one-off game at the Championship sides ground
2) they play the bottom placed side in SL in a two-legged game home and away
3) they get automatic promotion and bottom of SL go out.

Then to protect the side coming up, you introduce the fact that a team cannot be relegated out of SL in their first season in SL. A decision would have to be made in such a circumstance that the promoted side does finish bottom...do you have no promotion or does "next to bottom" face dropping out (it will always be one of the bottom two though).

There are two divisions of pro cricket clubs, and there should be two divisions of pro RL clubs. The comparison is not a fair one, it's like compaing SL with the National Conference.

Depends what you mean by 'really competitive'.


Not over the course of a full season they couldn't. They'd finish bottom and get relegated the season after they came up.

Its not, its like comparing SL with the championships.

It would be nice if there were two divisions of pro RL but there arent enough clubs, players or money to have that.

This is a hard issue. P&R threatens the stability of clubs who do get into super league, restricting the ability of younger players to get through the ranks, as management bring in grizzled old pros to try and stay up. However, not having P&R kills off the support of lower league clubs by giving them nothing to aspire to, and little chance of a 'big game' against the top end of super league.

I think the optimum scenario would be P&R, but with parachute payments & subsidies to newly promoted teams. So, for your first 3 seasons promoted you'd get some money off the RFL to allow you to get players in, and an exemption from the salary cap. For 3 years after going down, there'd be support from the RFL to ensure clubs didn't go bust (though these would both obviously reduce year-on-year).

This also needs to happen between the Championship & Championship 1, with the ultimate aim of bringing all those clubs up to a level at which they can sustain a fully pro team.

However, that will need to go hand in hand with generating paydays for smaller clubs (by expanding the challenge cup to ensure more lower-league clubs face SL/top level championship opposition), and by supporting the grassroots in expansion areas (particularly vital in London & Wales).

Well said Smokey.

There are enough players and clubs. It's money that's the issue. A lot of the players in the second division are either players that have come through Super League ranks and been released or young kids who never made the grade. In a full-time environment, I have no doubt that a lot of these players could make the step-up.

You are all looking at P & R from the view point of the clubs as they are now. With P & R you will get bigger crowds for the champ. clubs, better coverage of the team and better crowds. this wil allow them to grow manage the finances well and you can build a team, over many years that can compete at the top. As for TV money all the money at the moment is from Super league. The champ. clubs were sold down the river and there games were given away for free. get someone in the RFL that can get a fair price for the games and you have more income. Sky have super league and prem. sport, ch. 5 or BBC have rights to Super league Div 1.

I have plenty of doubt. We can "produce" as many young lads as we want, but until we improve the quality of the coaching they receive andimprove the attitude at the places they learn their skills then we won't produce enough young lads of good enough quality.
We don't want to admit it, but the problem is at grassroots level.