Said nobody, ever....except maybe Jean when you're logged in as it.

Expansion. DONE PROPERLY!!!

Tuoyo Egodo - London
Guy Armitage - London
Will Lovell - Northampton (London Academy Product)
Kieran Dixon London
Rob Butler - Kent
Josh Walters - Surrey
Sadiq Adebiyi - Nigeria (raised in London & London Trained)
Olsi Krasniqi - Albania (London Trained)
James Meadows - London
Jacob Ogden - Northampton (London Trained)
Dan Hindmarsh - London
Sam Davis - London
Gideon Boafo - London
Jordan Williams - London
Rian Horsman - London
Oliver Leyland - London
Dan Norman -London

17 of the 25-man London Broncos 2020 Squad are London Trained, with 2 Bor in Northampton, and 1 each in Albania and Nigeria.

By Comparison, Toronto has no local players and as a club has admitted that there will be none for the foreseeable future.......I would hazard a guess that there are plenty of Leigh and Wakefield youngsters knocking about the top 2 tiers of the European game, but not a single North American.

"Argyle is wealthy" does not equal RL is going to take off in North America, but as others have said, the RL press, preaching to an ever-shrinking choir (how many people will pay for the online subscription being touted by J. Drake and TotalfacistRL?) and they will spout what they think it is you want to hear.

Back to the 8 London Broncos who aren't from south of Sheffield.

Olly Ashall-Bott - Widnes
Cory Aston - Sheffield
Morgan Smith - Warrington
Éloi Pélissier - France
Rhys Curran - Australia via Elite 1 in France
Matty Fozard - Widnes
Greg Richards - Cumbria (St Helens Trained)
Eddie Battye - Sheffield

How long do you recon it'll take Toronto or NYC to have a squad made up of 70% of their own trained players, from their own catchment area? I reckon they could do it now if they fancied dropping back down to L1, but the reality is they are Argyles "vanity project"...a viewpoint underlined by Toronto wanting a bigger cap so they can buy success.

I have seen many well thought out arguments as to why Toronto are not the success that many "wish they were" but not may realistic responses other than that they get 9k to games.....which they do....just not 9k people paying to get in and not 9k watching the game. And this is 100% reliant on the generosity of Argyle. No TV deal, No development not even attempt at development, no shirt sponsor deal extension or announcement, no update on ST sales

Speaking of their blinding success to date, I find it very strange there's been no mention of a 2020 sponsor and no sign of a 2020 playing shirt. This points to both continued troubles with suppliers and AirTransat's 3-year tenure as shirt sponsor for flights as having come to an end. They signed SBW and followed this up by extending some pretty average players contracts and all we've heard is that they expect to sell an extra 1,000 ST's on the back of SBW...it all sounds really sustainable, doesn't it?

Wakefield may play out of a ground that has seen better days and the may not be a side packed with local talent, but given they have to fight off the attentions of countless other sides for the signatures of local kids, they perform pretty well. Their 5,500 average gates in 2019 will almost certainly generate considerably more revenue than the 9k beer-loving Canadians do and Ryan Hampshire, their Wakefield Born FB in 2019 already outnumbers the number of Canadians in the Toronto Squad.

It's also highly unlikely that Wakefield will be breaking the cap any time soon and unfortunately, I doubt that the same can be said for Toronto.

Loads of local talent in Wakefield. Wakey city lads in SL are Hampshire, Johnstone, Kirmond, batchelor, Jowitt, Crowther, Milner, Massey, and olpherts. Quality Cas lads, that is part of Wakefield district include Wood, Arundel, Eden, Holmes, & Clare, also from Wakey district areas Pontefract Fev and Normanton are Thompson, Reynolds, Shenton, Watts, Smith, the two Briscoes, McLelland, Westerman, Dawson-Jones Addy and Crookes = 26. As for fans a total of 15,000 pay to watch 3 RL clubs in the area. Never mind Toronto's 4,000 paying fans plus free tickets and beer festival entrants.

There is this lunatic idea going around on RL forums that somehow because Wakefield & Cas have old grounds they should bow out of Superleague for New York & Ottawa to replace them. However NY and Ottawa are not "clubs" but two fantasies created by Perez and Wilby annually kicked further down the line, who serve only to give an impression NARL is expanding. i can't fathom why RL newspaper publishers such as Lockwood and Sadler give all this stuff such credibility when they must know it's a sham, and furthermore not to the taste of the very real people like me and 80% of fans in Hull, who actually who buy their publications, just to have North America is the future rammed down out throats?

But surely Sadler and Lockwood must know all the flatcaps like me who've never ventured past the end of their streets except to buy League Express and League Weekly, especially those who support clubs like HKR, Fartown, Cas, Wakey and Salford (about 30,000 potential or current buyers of these rags) aren't in favour of "hearing" their clubs are probably the ones to be relegated for this Transatlantic dream? The Hull Daily Mail poll confirmed 80% of fans don't want it

I don’t want to do a thesis on Leigh born players or administration boundaries just to combat ignorance. Suffice to say the great Martyn Ridyard, is a “Leigh Lad”, but only two miles away are the younger Adamson Brothers not erm, actually from Leigh, but quality players nonetheless. Leigh is part of the RL hotbed of Wigan Borough. Ironically TWP’s Higson is a Leigh lad.

The SBW signing came after McDermott confirmed TWP would not be doing any player development (and now apparently not much recruitment). This expensive “news management” was called out by Schofield on Monday with his view that a 34 year old with creaking bones who didn’t go great in the RU world cup is unlikely to do much surrounded by journeymen team mates. Schoey may end up being booted out of League express/totalrl along with you!!

I post this to agree on your analysis that essentially TWP appear to have given up, masking that with the SWB signing that covers reality. Equally look where Perez is now? Not at Ottawa where there’s apparently a mountain of work to do to prepare them for joining the game here, but lounging in a chair at Odsal in a thick winter jumper playing at Bulls CEO. This is in League Weekly where his assertions Ottawa are the next big RL thing go unchallenged, but supported in Lockwood's editorial.

It looks like the dream is turning to nightmare since McManus publicly announced SL didn't want TWP, but Lockwood is still spouting love for Canada in Weekly, whilst Sadler's Express is certainly of no mind to ever look beyond the "fantastic headlines" "Bob Hunter feeds them? I don't get it?

So. To recap.
Jean and Steph question the viability of Wakefield and Leigh by comparison with Toronto and other (to date) Imaginary expansion areas, are in receipt of posts showing that Leigh and Wakefield are both better production lines as well as being vastly more fiscally viable than Toronto, whilst, London, a true bastion of development and expansion have a side with 70% home-grown talent.
Suddenly Jean and Steph vanish from this thread? Coincidence, or just another example of the troll collective unable to debate real RL issues without throwing insults designed to wind up fans of traditional clubs.

Donnyman. The RL press (sic) has been an irrelevance for over a decade now, in the same way, that traditional media such as papers and TV news have diminished in relevance. I get most of my RL info (and other news) from the web. My Twitter feed rarely beats websites like NRL.COM or Rugby-league to the punch and this board is as quick to get breaking news as total fascist RL, except John Drake is now going to try and charge for breaking news on-line. He's like a poor man's version of Murdoch. SBW, probably the biggest RL story of the off-season to date, was common knowledge in both Union ad League circles for ages before the story broke. The NRL drugs story with the recently retired KIWI RL STAR supposedly funding the enterprise has been dragged out for months. Rugby League Journalists are generally penning articles that they hope will encourage debate and discussion amongst sports fans, but their constant fawning over the likes of Bibey and Perez is more damaging to the sport than it is interesting. Neither has demonstrated anything other than an admirable passion for the sport. NYC claims to be wanting to develop players, but are being linked with every retiree in the NRL.....which is it? Ottowa is also we are told about developing the game but from where...Bradford? Does either side have a physical postal address in NYC/Ottowa or are they based in Bradford/Huddersfield?

Back to Toronto, where SBW will be expected to single-handedly drag Toronto off the foot of the table. As London showed last year, a promoted side can hold their own at the bottom half of SL, but I suspect that if Toronto are in the mix for relegation (as I believe they will be) come August, Argyle will have no qualms about buying them out of trouble and the RL press will write that it's OK, because Melbourne did it......this is the same Melbourne that hasn't a single victorian player in their 2020 squad some 20 years after they started........instant gratification isn't sustainable in terms of RL expansion.

There is nothing to discuss. You believe a team that plays out of a stadium that resembles a high rise council estate and was granted a super league license when their ground didn’t meet the criteria, who also pulls an average attendance of about 4K yet has been in existence for 100 years deserves a super league place over a team in existence for 3 years who have nearly 3 times the fans and also have a corporate presence only Wakefield could dream of lol

The attraction of RLfans.com is that only a couple of posters if that , keep trying to tell people that there is an explosion of RL across Europe and North America such that the failing M62 will be blown away by it. The saying goes you couldn't make it up, but Jean and Steph do but they back off when presented with the facts - fair enough? However the equivalent Total RL.com site appears to carry many members with the same viewpoint as Jean and Steph, but they don't back off anyone doubting the inevitability of North America being the future, and the M62 the past? Somehow the moderators on that site are happy for such doubters (I suggest like you) to be (in print) destroyed and ultimately banned which I think you were? Why if I may ask?

Did you mean "Wilby" and not Bibey when you referred to Perez? Yes I agree these people are allowed to spout all sorts without a single challenge but I would be sympathetic to RL Journos who report what others say leaving it as that, especially if the "news" sounds good for the game. However I agree with you it's not good news that London's progress was stymied by Toronto's purchase of a promotion by massively outspending the other clubs. I do remember when Perez first spoke, and he spoke about player development and TV deals. Is there a freelance RL journo prepared to challenge the failure to do either? and a open minded publisher prepared to print that? If not never mind, McManus who called TWP out as a anglo/Aussie side owned by an Aussie, and Lenegan who subbed London's losses on relegation will in time put things right.

Because Gutterfax was a trolling troublemaker who ruined good discussions, just like he does on here.

Ooooh a "soundbite"!...if only I had seen that coming
...er, hang on. I did


But I'll humour you

1. Wakefield averaged just under 5,500 last year.
2. Toronto averaged 6,084 over 13 "home games" in 2019. Not only is that not 3 times 5,500, neither is it 3 times your off the cuff and inaccurate 4k
3. Toronto are on record as saying they give away thousands of tickets, which is something that Wakefield do not
4. Belle Vue is a truly awful stadium, that Wakefield trinity own and are in the process of the first stages of redevelopment.
5. Lamport is a municipal stadium, rented by Toronto Wolfpack and one that would fail the now defunct SL minimum standards at every point at which BV would.
6. No fiscal figure has even been released in terms of the corporate income of Toronto, so you are adding guesswork to falsified attendance figures.

...so, to recap. You came out with false figures whilst arguing the one point that I said you would and have claimed that Toronto have a corporate presence.......one which means that they have no local TV deal, no announced 2020 playing shirt or playing sponsor and have signed a 34yr old average Rugby Player at the twilight of his career in the hope of selling an extra 1,000 season tickets, just to wind up fans of Traditional Heartland Clubs.

Must try harder Stephanie. I know trolls care not for winning or losing debates, but you're drowning in your own effluent now and it's sad to watch

There hasn't been a decent discussion on that toilet of a site in ages.
As for decent discussions on here. I asked you and Stephanie in this tread why a rich mans toy, with no TV deal, no development program and nothing other than 2k paying fans at best was better than Wakefield or Leigh? Instead of answering, you again attack me.....whilst Stephanie answered in exactly the way I predicted.
You used to represent a challenge, but of late, you both(sic) have been lazy and resorted to insults....Total RL are welcome to Manfred Mann.....

Back on Thread.

rlHERErl is a map of the 2020 Superleague Home Grounds in the United Kingdom.
rlTOP FLIGHT FOOTBALLrl as well as rlTOP FLIGHT RUGBY UNIONrl have a far bigger geographical reach tha us, yet for some unfathomable reason, some folk believe that replacing Wakefield with Toronto is a step forward. The reality is, it's a disaster waiting to happen on many fronts.

1. The UK TV partner and biggest investor in the sport doesn't give a flying one for Toronto or Catalans. Neither teams sell subscriptions or deliver increased ad revenue and neither (as I type) have a domestic TV deal of their own.
2. Remove Wakefield and you remove the pathway for kids. Any Kid can learn a trade and then travel to use it, but there's no way Toronto et al will gamble on development when they can just pay more for players already "battle hardened".
3. The American Sports model is based on College players stepping up. There is no pathway for NA kids to step up as there's no RL in colleges there.
4. David Argyle needs to stay healthy and interested....otherwise it's over. That is not a good business model!

....again, as Stephanie kindly proved, the only come back on this is the stock answer that Toronto get fans to games in big numbers, but that really isn't benefiting the sport...it's just moving players to a different venue for their home games......it's a pointless exercise. If you doubt me, look at London from SLI until their demise in 2014.....very little done in the way of structured development, but a series of grounds and false dawns with a team of mercenaries.....now look at them. 70% local and with a better chance of survival when Hughes leaves than at any stage in the last 20 years.....it's not glitzy, there's little glamour, but there's a community feel and it's slowly paying dividends.

Well both he and you have been very civil towards me, I'm happy for anyone to discuss what "could be if only" for Rugby League, or conversely what is the "best for" Rugby League as it stands. In over 50 years of following the game it was always exciting when a new club in a new area was formed, the first one I came across (Notwithstanding Doncaster and Blackpool had been new clubs before them) was Huyton, who were Liverpool moving to a new place, after that it was Fulham in London and then an explosion of clubs around the north - Sheffield, Mansfield, Nottingham, Scarborough, and Trafford. At the time I thought the advantage of these clubs were that they were next door to the Heartlands of Rugby League and they would be accessible for players to go play at and fans to get to following their traditional teams against the new exciting clubs. I felt that this would lead to the new clubs growing investment and participation.

But in every single case it simply didn't happen Jean, other sports like soccer and Union were entrenched in those areas. and the local businessmen invested in them and local people played them and didn't want or need league. I have first hand knowledge and experience of "expansion" and it doesn't work mate, Rugby league only works where there is a tradition of it and that includes your clubs in Perpignan and Toulouse. In North America their own sports are entrenched too, INCLUDING Rugby Union (that has been around many years in Canada it started in 1865 and in the USA it dates back to 1874) anyone thinking RL will grow there must go to the MLR site and note that it's Rugby Union that is growing apace in terms of investment and participation.

At times Perez delights me with his enthusiasm for the game, I hope he stays at Odsal and leads the Bulls back to Superleague, but when he is talking rubbish about TWP, Ottawa and New York it really annoys me as I'm getting too old (and maybe too wise) to swallow all this garbage he talks. North Americans don't need or want Rugby League.

It is important to note that the advantages TWP were going to bring here were twofold as stated by Perez in July 2016, those were an NATV deal and NA players. So far the achievements are zero and zero. "Crowds" in any shape or form were never mentioned by Perez. In fact the removal of clubs here for NA clubs would depress crowds as TWP would not bring fans here. You watch the western terrace at Headingley when the useless Cas Fartown Bradford and Wakefield turn up against the same terrace when Crusaders, London, Catalans and Toulouse turned up.

I've noted so many arguments that "away" fans don't matter and should not count, I have been so convinced of this that I have now started to turn away potential customers for my own business who could not show me proof they live in my postcode area. Just the other week I stopped off at a Tesco in Castleford and was turned away at the door when I could not prove a Castleford address.