nothing against Leeds, i would say the same if it was Wakefield, Swinton, Leigh or anyone. I think its a bit much to say the best ever when only twice in the last 10 years they have been the best team in the entire season.

I know if you're a Leeds fan you don't want to admit to yourself the truth but winning the playoffs is not much different to winning the CC really.

The GF is like a glam version of the CC. Its just that Sky have 'sexed it up'

I think Brian McDermott and Kevin Sinfield have broken your mind Are you sure you're not Shaun Wane?

It's far worse than i thought.

It's clear to me you are struggling to come to terms with leeds achievments. Yes it appears you are suffering from a severe case schizophrenic catatonia with chronic paranoid delusions. You've created an alternate reality for yourself.

Get help before people get hurt.

Whether they're the best English club side ever is something that can never be categorically stated, however the point blank refusal of some to acknowledge the fact that they are clearly one of the greatest is utterly baffling. The long term and consistent success of this side is remarkable and, (with no disrespect to the all-conquering Wigan team of the 90's who were operating under a system that made their success easier to come by as opposed to the levelling influence of the salary cap) the only side that can claim to compare is Saint Helens. To pick out Bradford of 2003 or Saints of 2006 is a false argument - brilliance can be fleeting, it can last a season, but greatness is earned over time and only the current Leeds and Saints sides can stake a claim to that.

Since the likes of Sinfield, McGuire, Burrow, Bailey et al first pulled on their shirts they've earned the right to be considered great and for others to argue that they are the greatest ever without being belittled, argued against by all means, but to dismiss this side is myopic and ignorant.

For what it's worth here's what a SL table of the last ten years looks like featuring the current big 4 and Bradford.

Saints 393points 4x1st 3x2nd 2x3rd 1x4th 1x5th 1 Title
Leeds 392points 2x1st 4x2nd 1x3rd 1x4th 2x5th 6 Titles
BIG GAP
Wigan 333points 2x1st 1x2nd 1x3rd 2x4th 2x6th 1x7th 1x8th 1 Title
Wire 315points 1x1st 1x2nd 1x3rd 1x4th 3x6th 1x7th 1x8th 1x10th No titles
Bulls 302points 1x1st 1x2nd 2x3rd 1x4th 1x5th 2x9th 2x10th 2 Titles

The point of all that being that the core of the Leeds and Saints teams over that ten year period of dominance have stayed largely the same and have (as clearly demonstrated) delivered time and time again. That's the mark of greatness. There is no doubt that this Leeds side is great, and to argue that they are not is futile and petty.

The greatest? Each to their own, but it's going to take one hell of a team to eclipse their achievements any time soon and I guarantee you that any team that does will have their fans hailing them as the greatest ever - and surely that's a good benchmark?

When we see fans of the Bulls and Hull FC giving such praise to Leeds (and the relentless bile from the crust munchers ) then its apparent this is a pretty special team.

Quote: Dougy "Leeds were true Champions in 2004 & 2009. Undisputed Champions. You can't say that about the other years. Really they have only been real Champions twice in the SL era yet some people try to make them the best ever? Anyway, its not Leeds fault, its the RFL's and it needs changing quick. Nobody would complain if the team finishing top became Champions.'" But none of your fans were bothered when we knocked out Wire last year. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=509953&tsmp=1350142495&start=20 What's different this time?

Quote: Dougy "Leeds were true Champions in 2004 & 2009. Undisputed Champions. You can't say that about the other years. Really they have only been real Champions twice in the SL era yet some people try to make them the best ever? Anyway, its not Leeds fault, its the RFL's and it needs changing quick. Nobody would complain if the team finishing top became Champions.'" But none of your fans were bothered when we knocked out Wire last year. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=509953&tsmp=1350142495&start=20 What's different this time?

What definition are we using here? Is there a defined time period?

The Leeds team of the last 6 years have been very very successful, but they aren't the only team over a 6 year period to be very successful. They're undeniably the best play off team now though.

Leeds 2007-2012:
5 SL Championships from 5 Grand Finals.
1 League Leaders Shield.
2 World Club Championships out of 4.
0 Challenge Cups out of 3 Finals.

Saints 2004-2009
1 SL Championship from 4 Grand Finals.
4 League Leaders Shields.
1 World Club Championship from 1.
4 Challenge Cups out of 4 Finals.

Saints 2002-2007
2 SL Championships from 3 Grand Finals.
4 League Leaders Shields
1 World Club Championship out of 2.
3 Challenge Cups out of 4 Finals.

Saints 2001-2006
2 SL Championships out of 2 Grand Finals.
3 League Leaders Shield
2 World Club Challenge out of 3.
3 Challenge Cups out 4 Finals.

Bradford 2001-2006
3 SL Championships from 5 Grand Finals.
2 League Leaders Shields
3 World Club Championships out of 3.
1 Challenge Cup out of 2 Finals

Leeds have only been dominant in one competition in this period, that being the play-off series.

If you watch the final it looks like Leeds have more players on the field than Wire. In attack and defence they were better just as they were against Wigan in the semi. I said on another thread that Leeds have the best young set of backs in SL and it was proved in both games. They were led by Kev and they were excellent. I would have him at Leigh in a shot. Him and all the backs. Hard for a Leyther to admire a Leed side but they were pretty good in a lot of their games this season and were tripe when they were'nt. I could watch the type of rugby they play all the time.

So what you're saying is that we've only seen eight 'true champions' since the play-offs started? (Wigan in 1998, Bradford in 2001, St Helens in 2002, Bradford in 2003, Leeds in 2004, St Helens in 2006, Leeds in 2009 and Wigan in 2010)

Maybe you could start a campaign to get the RFL to get the other seven fake champions taken off the records?

If people want to proclaim Leeds the best Super League team, with their 6 championships, then I'm quite happy to agrre with that.

If people want to proclaim the best team of the Super League era, then I'd suggest St Helens, with 5 championships, 6 top of the table finishes, 7 Challenge Cups, and 2 World Club Challenges.

As for the best team ever, well that's a toughie, and I wouldn't know where to start.

I wouldn't argue with either point. What I would point out is that Leeds are still picking up trophies so are still in the process of staking their claim as best of the SL era, whereas Saints are currently at a bit of a standstill. I've a feeling that this will change though; any gaps in Saints' record of picking up silverware have never lasted very long, at least not since I've been watching the game.

Also, just as Saints stopped winning trophies every year when the likes of Scully and Long retired/moved on; so it will be interesting to see how Leeds try and replace Sinfield and Peacock.

To use a business analogy is wrong - so let's use a sporting one instead...

You're running a marathon. You know you've got more than 26 miles ahead of you, but after 23 miles of leading the race (by a distance of your choosing), you hit the wall and fall away rapidly. Do you:

A. Claim that you were the best runner for the majority of the race and therefore demand or morally claim the win?
B. Claim that whoever beat you (and, strangely enough, beat you in the same manner last time) just got lucky and didn't deserve the win?
C. Accept that you were good for most of the race, but weren't good enough to win it, recognising and applauding the eventual victor for using the best tactics to win the race?

Sour grapes, opinions on the merits of the play off system, ideas on what makes a true champion side? Well, they're all topics for debate, but the OP's question was "...is Sinfield's Leeds the best team ever? In Super League terms, and when it comes to playing the way you need to play in order to win the competition as it is right now - yes. Any other answer would be just churlish. My opinion? The play off system is only crap if your team doesn't see the job out or does badly when it matters.

When it comes to mastering and managing the FULL season, playing so many games, managing injuries, suspensions and then playing at your best when it matters most - home or away, Leeds are undeniably the better than anyone else. The record books tell you that.

Actually the comparison would be valid, as the NRL proclaim their Grand Final winners champions, just as we do, after a playoff series.

It would be valid as the last two Champions of the NRL weren't the minor premiers.

It would be valid as the minor premiers have failed to make the Grand Final four times since 1999.

The Australians are not insular luddites and have no issues whatsoever with recognising the true champions from the minor premiers. Perhaps it's why our sport thrives down under and struggles over here.