FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > Stopping Sam Tomkins |
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 20628 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2016 | Aug 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
44480_1390845286.jpg It's been fun.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_44480.jpg |
|
| Go low, forget wrapping the ball up, let him get rid of it and hope your structures are good enough to get the next man in he line.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 138 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2012 | Aug 2012 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
: |
|
| Quote: cadoo "Sam Tomkins doesn't take the first carry on a kick return as much as he used to do. If he takes the ball he'll usually pass to one of our bigger wingers - Charnley/Richards/Gelling - and they'll drive the ball in hard & look for a quick POTB. Sam will jump into dummy half & look to catch the markers out of position or if the defence has their back turned to him he'll run at you and is very difficult to put down because he accelerates off the mark so quickly and has outstanding footwork and balance. If it doesn't lead to a break/try it will lead to a penalty with the markers not square or the defenders are offside. So on kick chase you have to move up as a unit & have no-one jumping out the line. If he hasn't returned the kick, make sure on play 2 that your markers are set and concentrating otherwise he'll catch you out better than most.
In general play it's a whole difference ball game. You're not stopping Sam Tomkins as such you're stopping the Wigan machine. We have our systems/structures in place where every player has a role in the attack. It's practically two (sometimes three) waves of attack with our forwards running excellent lines (who are all viable options so the defence has to concentrate) and then our backs are the second wave who are all quick and evasive so the defence must make the right decision on whether the ball will stay with Finch/Leuluai/McIlorum or will hit a forward or will come to a back. Then you have Sam Tomkins who roams around in the background & will offer himself as a third option. He attracts defenders so can be used as a dummy runner but more often than not he'll get the ball in the space that the waves of attackers has created with the indecisiveness of the defenders.
Every coach in Super League will have looked at tapes of Wigan & will know exactly what Wigan are going to do. Every game I go to I see exactly the same structures of attack every week. The problem for the opposition and the reason we're so successful is that it is very, very, very difficult to stop. Our players are well drilled & know exactly where to be on every play. We have world class/top class players in key positions - Sam Tomkins/Brett Finch/Thomas Leuluai/Mike McIlorum/Sean O'Loughlin - which means our execution is top draw. Coupled with the fact these lads have had two years under Michael Maguire in which to improve/adapt to these plays means Wigan RL 2012 are very hard to stop.'"
I'm sure they're as good as you say they are. And yet Tomkins (and Wigan) struggled to beat Fev. Fev wrapped him up and stopped him playing. He even knocked on in front of his own posts - had the referee awarded Fev the scrum instead of awarding Wigan a bizarre penalty on the next play the outcome could have been different ( stress on "could"icon_wink.gif
Wigan are good - how good does that make Fev?
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 39717 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
: |
Moderator
|
| Quote: Jonesy "In Attack
Towering Bombs with a good chase, if he drops them (or does not even attempt to catch them) you are a good chance to get the ball back. If he takes the catch clean him up in the tackle.
In defence
He has tended to crab across the ground at Test level looking for a defender to come out of the line, a sound defensive structure will limit those chances substantially.'"
the bombs is a good call, he has at times looked a bit lost under a 'really good' high bomb. Not all the time but there's been a couple of occasions. Still learning the position so.
Another suggestion would be to get the tape of the sky game on the 23rd of MArch and emulate that.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15521 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2010 | 15 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2020 | May 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
50722_1319672516.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_50722.jpg |
|
| Put on a green and gold jersey - that's Kryptonite to Super Sam.
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 1213 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2017 | Jun 2012 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
39856.gif :39856.gif |
|
| Quote: bren2k "Put on a green and gold jersey - that's Kryptonite to Super Sam.'"
Its just another step up in level that can deal with Tomkins skills that may stand out at Club level but not cut it against top class defences.
Tomkins looked VERY ordinary against Oz in last years four nations, they looked at him and he disappeared.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 4112 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2004 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
Darlings of Super League: |
|
| Can Cadoo please clarify whether Mike McIlorum is top class or world class, just so I'm crystal on what it is I'm laughing at?
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 1213 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2017 | Jun 2012 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
39856.gif :39856.gif |
|
| Quote: just_browny "Can Cadoo please clarify whether Mike McIlorum is top class or world class, just so I'm crystal on what it is I'm laughing at?'"
Brett Finch has bounced around the NRL Clubs without any wanting to hold on to him for more than a season or two. He moved to England because it was his last option to play first grade Rugby League.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 522 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2011 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2013 | Jan 2013 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
The weak conform, the strong survive.: |
|
| As has been said, watch the Fev - Wigan cc game. You hardly knew him and Finch were playing.
That's how to stop Sam Tomkins
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 4112 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2004 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Nov 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
Darlings of Super League: |
|
| Quote: sidnee "As has been said, watch the Fev - Wigan cc game. You hardly knew him and Finch were playing.
That's how to stop Sam Tomkins
Presumably it was the top class (world class?) ability of McIlorum that got Wigan over the line.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 684 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Aug 2006 | 18 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2024 | Sep 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
: |
|
| You guys have got it all muddled up...Sam tomkins is a lookalike actor working at a dis-functional hotel in spain, and wigans fullback is a guy called liam with a transvestite father from Benidorm...
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 1824 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2010 | 15 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2013 | Jul 2012 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
47997_1274724262.jpg Ers tha' geet bitter on?:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_47997.jpg |
|
| Quote: bren2k "Put on a green and gold jersey - that's Kryptonite to Super Sam.'"
Or swap Finch and Leuluai for Rangi Chase and Kevin Sinfield
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1002 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2015 | Feb 2015 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
: |
|
| I quite like the Fev idea of playing every game in a mud bath, but its probably not the best way to create a team capable of beating Australia.
FWIW, answering my own question, I think you try not to worry about him. His effectiveness multiplies quickly if Wigan dominate other areas, leading to broken defensive patterns. When he's played against Aus, GBs attacking structure is far less sophisticated than Wigan's (and to be fair most of the top SL sides) and the Aus defence is far better than the average SL side. Totally agree with the Chase/Sinfield comment. Drifting off topic here, but we need to pick the best *team*, not just find a way of getting the 'best' 17 players wedged into the side somehow. Wane for England
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 27757 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2021 | May 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
34_1430670222.jpg [url=http://wp.me/p1ImSi-n8:8gr6akfh][b:8gr6akfh]An Ode to Sepp Blatter[/b:8gr6akfh][/url:8gr6akfh]
[url=http://wp.me/s1ImSi-dadbod:8gr6akfh][b:8gr6akfh]Dadbod[/b:8gr6akfh][/url:8gr6akfh]
[url=http://wp.me/p1ImSi-mK:8gr6akfh][b:8gr6akfh]Next In Line To The Throne[/b:8gr6akfh][/url:8gr6akfh]
[url=https://mcclennan.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/st-helens-and-a-fitting-end-to-a-season-of-unsung-heroes/:8gr6akfh][b:8gr6akfh]St Helens and a Fitting End to a Season of Unsung Heroes[/b:8gr6akfh][/url:8gr6akfh]
[url=https://twitter.com/cinematicsoul:8gr6akfh][b:8gr6akfh]Follow my wisdom on Twitter[/b:8gr6akfh][/url:8gr6akfh]
[url=http://wp.me/p1ImSi-aA:8gr6akfh][b:8gr6akfh]Top 100 films of the 00s - The Top 5[/b:8gr6akfh][/url:8gr6akfh]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_34.jpg |
|
| Quote: Jonesy "In Attack
Towering Bombs with a good chase, if he drops them (or does not even attempt to catch them) you are a good chance to get the ball back. If he takes the catch clean him up in the tackle.'"
This. If people start bombing the hell out of him with good bombs (that's easier than it sounds given the play making selections of many players in SL) and he starts missing them like he can then it'll force the pies to re-evaluate whether they can keep him there. At the moment nobody has really applied that kind of pressure.
As for stopping him with the ball in structured play that's difficult because at the moment his team's timing on runs is exceptional. You can tell the difference when watching the game last night and how off the timing of runs was, particularly outside of Rangi Chase. Compare that with the synchronicity of the game at Manchester when Tomkins was often running at a depleted threequarter line with several supporting options available to him. That said our defences are pretty weak over here this season and that extra space teams are giving him is lethal.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 1824 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2010 | 15 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2013 | Jul 2012 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
47997_1274724262.jpg Ers tha' geet bitter on?:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_47997.jpg |
|
| I was being a tad cheeky with the Chase/Sinfield reference. The issue with his England form is much more down to the coach and the attack structures that he has (or doesn't have) in place. Wigan's attacking set moves are mostly designed to give Tomkins the ball at 3rd reciever with space to run into, which he can then exploit. With McNamara in charge, England don't seem to have any set moves whatsoever! Hopefully we'll see that change in the upcoming Exiles game but I'm not holding my breath. I have a degree of sympathy in that McNamara has a very limited number of training sessions to put systems in place, whereas at Wigan the timing and structure will get worked on on a daily basis throughout the season but even just a little attacking organisation and ball movement is much better than five drives for a crap kick
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 20628 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2016 | Aug 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
44480_1390845286.jpg It's been fun.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_44480.jpg |
|
| Banana couldn't coach a turd out of his own backside
|
|
|
|
|
|