|
FORUMS > The Virtual Terrace > This is not a cycle - what can other clubs do? |
![](images/sitelogos/2022-2.jpg) |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 12614 | ![](images/sitelogos/fullsize/59.png) |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2007 | 17 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2024 | Jun 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
Moderator
|
|
Quote: Magic Superbeetle "I'm curious - who was the last ambitious player developed by a club who was then poached by Wigan/Saints/Leeds? We see overseas players like Jackson Hastings move around, but I think its generally quite rare for homegrown players to jump to those clubs (I think LMS is the only one currently at Saints who was signed from another SL club at the time who was homegrown) - its more common to sign from the Championship.
This may be colloquial but it tends to be the Huddersfield/Hull/Warrington level of those trying to break the triopoly who are more likely to go after other teams developing talent. Wakefield resisted selling Tom Johnstone for ages (and if they didnt have doubts over his fitness, I doubt theyd have hesitated to have kept him this year?) Warrington bid on Truman at Cas last year etc.
Maybe its naivety on my behalf, but the issue sits squarely before players make their first team debut. I don't see any likelihood of Mikey Lewis being signed by Saints (Dodd), Wigan (Smith) or Leeds (Sinfield) and if Hull KR can bring another couple through next year and start building that pathway, it would be a really positive thing. The risks of loss of form and missing out on the playoffs, leading to signing another scrumhalf, and HKR having equally talented players in the next academy group can be mitigated, but understandably really challenging.'"
Good points/questions. Before I answer I should probably acknowledge that my view isn't representative of general Hull KR opinion, from CEO to the vast, vast majority of fans. In fact, it is pretty much the polar opposite.
I guess I am going fair way back to players like Shenton (fairly briefly and trophylessly, admittedly), LMS, Clubb and Tom Briscoe who have retired or will do in the not too distant. They're the ones who spring to mind... then again, I'm getting old and disinterested, and I barely knew who four-time dream teamer Morgan Knowles was until last week. Scott Taylor is the obvious one from a Hull KR perspective - I don't think many would argue against him being the best Hull KR-produced player of the SL era (well, Jon Wilkin obviously - but I mean after our first promotion). There were other factors at play, but not long after the club announced their 'building for the future' strategy for 2012 onwards, he left to immediately win the double with Wigan in 2013.
Maybe it isn't happening as much now, but look at who Hull KR (and for good measure, Hull FC) produced during the decade that followed Taylor's debut.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ue-4212834
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... 10-4169652
I can't be bothered to check but I don't think there's a full England or GB international in there (like Taylor, Josh Hodgson debuted in 2009). Cas and Wakefield have hardly been prolific either.
Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
Without major (and unlikely) external investment in clubs outside the top group, the only way I can see to have a more compelling pro RL competition on this side of the world is through a fundamental restructure. I hope I'm wrong, because that also seems unlikely.
Edit: Jordan Abdull played for England last year.
|
|
Quote: Magic Superbeetle "I'm curious - who was the last ambitious player developed by a club who was then poached by Wigan/Saints/Leeds? We see overseas players like Jackson Hastings move around, but I think its generally quite rare for homegrown players to jump to those clubs (I think LMS is the only one currently at Saints who was signed from another SL club at the time who was homegrown) - its more common to sign from the Championship.
This may be colloquial but it tends to be the Huddersfield/Hull/Warrington level of those trying to break the triopoly who are more likely to go after other teams developing talent. Wakefield resisted selling Tom Johnstone for ages (and if they didnt have doubts over his fitness, I doubt theyd have hesitated to have kept him this year?) Warrington bid on Truman at Cas last year etc.
Maybe its naivety on my behalf, but the issue sits squarely before players make their first team debut. I don't see any likelihood of Mikey Lewis being signed by Saints (Dodd), Wigan (Smith) or Leeds (Sinfield) and if Hull KR can bring another couple through next year and start building that pathway, it would be a really positive thing. The risks of loss of form and missing out on the playoffs, leading to signing another scrumhalf, and HKR having equally talented players in the next academy group can be mitigated, but understandably really challenging.'"
Good points/questions. Before I answer I should probably acknowledge that my view isn't representative of general Hull KR opinion, from CEO to the vast, vast majority of fans. In fact, it is pretty much the polar opposite.
I guess I am going fair way back to players like Shenton (fairly briefly and trophylessly, admittedly), LMS, Clubb and Tom Briscoe who have retired or will do in the not too distant. They're the ones who spring to mind... then again, I'm getting old and disinterested, and I barely knew who four-time dream teamer Morgan Knowles was until last week. Scott Taylor is the obvious one from a Hull KR perspective - I don't think many would argue against him being the best Hull KR-produced player of the SL era (well, Jon Wilkin obviously - but I mean after our first promotion). There were other factors at play, but not long after the club announced their 'building for the future' strategy for 2012 onwards, he left to immediately win the double with Wigan in 2013.
Maybe it isn't happening as much now, but look at who Hull KR (and for good measure, Hull FC) produced during the decade that followed Taylor's debut.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... ue-4212834
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/r ... 10-4169652
I can't be bothered to check but I don't think there's a full England or GB international in there (like Taylor, Josh Hodgson debuted in 2009). Cas and Wakefield have hardly been prolific either.
Now, if somebody could explain to me why these academies have been so relatively unproductive for so long and that there are realistic steps that they can take to remedy that without cutting 25% off the first team wage bill, or something similarly self defeating, then I'll very happily change my mind. Who wouldn't want a substantial no- or low-cost benefit. But unless or until one of the less well-off clubs makes it work, I'll remain skeptical based on what I've seen these last ~15 years.
Without major (and unlikely) external investment in clubs outside the top group, the only way I can see to have a more compelling pro RL competition on this side of the world is through a fundamental restructure. I hope I'm wrong, because that also seems unlikely.
Edit: Jordan Abdull played for England last year.
|
|
| | |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 10464 | ![](images/sitelogos/fullsize/26.png) |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2011 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2023 | Dec 2022 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
60098_1402496159.jpg the future's bright the future's [color=#800000:1p3f9jf7]claret [/color:1p3f9jf7] and [color=#FFFF40:1p3f9jf7]gold [/color:1p3f9jf7]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_60098.jpg |
|
| The draft academy system was one proposed many years ago when a certain rugby union player was heavily involved in our sport at that level. The RFL were all for it, saw it as a way of strengthening all clubs. A sports scientist friend of mine was involved in some trials with the RFL looking at how young players are developed from a S & C perspective and was involved in discussing how this system would be set up.
The system went to vote and Leeds, saints, wigan and Bradford (that’s how long ago this was) we’re massively against the idea (can’t imagine why ![Rolling Eyes icon_rolleyes.gif](images/smilies//icon_rolleyes.gif) ) and there was talk of clubs threatening to pull out if this was forced upon them.
| | |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 17932 | ![](images/sitelogos/fullsize/33.png) |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2011 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2024 | Jul 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
simpsons/simp006.gif :simpsons/simp006.gif |
|
| Quote: Pumpetypump "Nonsense. I think the gurning lump of gristle from Cumbria was right in trying to remove some of the Academies. The only way we can thrive as a sport is by narrowing the amount of player pathways.'"
I disagree
The key to success is to have more players coming into the system and receiving quality coaching and guidance to help them improve.
It's all a numbers game and of course, money.
Those who can invest most into both recruitment of and keeping hold of the best young players should prosper most often and to be fair to Leeds, Wigan and Saints, plus, Bradford in the early days, those clubs have manged to do this better than the other clubs.
However, as we've seen with say, Warrington and Leeds for the last couple of years, you need a decent coach.
Money alone cant buy success but, it certainly helps.
It's the same in every sport and perhaps the reason that we've had other clubs at least make the final, perhaps shows how a salary cap can be effective, up to a point.
| | |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 12614 | ![](images/sitelogos/fullsize/59.png) |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2007 | 17 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2024 | Jun 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
Moderator
|
| Quote: Magic Superbeetle "
Maybe its naivety on my behalf, but the issue sits squarely before players make their first team debut. I don't see any likelihood of Mikey Lewis being signed by Saints (Dodd), Wigan (Smith) or Leeds (Sinfield) and if Hull KR can bring another couple through next year and start building that pathway, it would be a really positive thing. The risks of loss of form and missing out on the playoffs, leading to signing another scrumhalf, and HKR having equally talented players in the next academy group can be mitigated, but understandably really challenging.'"
Speculative, but from the Leeds board
Quote: Magic Superbeetle "I do like Lewis, hes exactly the sort of player I would love to see in blue & amber.'"
| | | |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 21755 | ![](images/sitelogos/fullsize/34.png) |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Sep 2003 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2024 | Jul 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
7078_1361913407.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_7078.jpg |
|
| Quote: Mild Rover "Speculative, but from the Leeds board
He is, of course, a Hull FC supporter (used to sit with his family in the South Stand) so I guess he could end up in black and white, similar to Taylor and Cator.
| | |
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 12614 | ![](images/sitelogos/fullsize/59.png) |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2007 | 17 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2024 | Jun 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
Moderator
|
| Quote: ComeOnYouUll "He is, of course, a Hull FC supporter (used to sit with his family in the South Stand) so I guess he could end up in black and white, similar to Taylor and Cator.'"
Cator is a different, though very admirable, case imo - in that he was never the great red and white hope that Taylor briefly was and Lewis is.
If we do end up having to sell Lewis in a couple of years, the consolation that I (alone) would take is that it might mean that there’d be more openness to innovative ideas rather than replicating approaches of a couple of clubs that have very different circumstances.
| | |
![](images/sitelogos/2022-2.jpg) | |
![](images/sitelogos/2022-2.jpg) |
All views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of the RLFANS.COM or its subsites.
Whilst every effort is made to ensure that news stories, articles and images are correct, we cannot be held responsible for errors. However, if you feel any material on this website is copyrighted or incorrect in any way please contact us using the link at the top of the page so we can remove it or negotiate copyright permission.
RLFANS.COM, the owners of this website, is not responsible for the content of its sub-sites or posts, please email the author of this sub-site or post if you feel you find an article offensive or of a choice nature that you disagree with.
Copyright 1999 - 2024 RLFANS.COM
You must be 18+ to gamble, for more information and for help with gambling issues see https://www.begambleaware.org/.
Please Support RLFANS.COM
2.24951171875:5
|
|
POSTS | ONLINE | REGISTRATIONS | RECORD | 19.6M | 2,998 | 80,085 | 14,103 |
| LOGIN HERE or REGISTER for more features!.
When you register you get access to the live match scores, live match chat and you can post in the discussions on the forums.
|
RLFANS Match Centre ![](images/on.png)
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1 | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
Wigan |
14 |
403 |
164 |
239 |
24 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
St.Helens |
15 |
423 |
162 |
261 |
22 |
Hull KR |
15 |
383 |
201 |
182 |
22 |
Warrington |
15 |
358 |
213 |
145 |
20 |
Salford |
15 |
295 |
288 |
7 |
20 |
Catalans |
15 |
288 |
220 |
68 |
18 |
|
Leeds |
15 |
274 |
270 |
4 |
16 |
Huddersfield |
15 |
298 |
317 |
-19 |
12 |
Leigh |
14 |
264 |
226 |
38 |
11 |
Castleford |
15 |
238 |
429 |
-191 |
7 |
Hull FC |
15 |
198 |
474 |
-276 |
4 |
LondonB |
15 |
140 |
598 |
-458 |
2 |
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1 | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
Wakefield |
13 |
486 |
142 |
344 |
26 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Sheffield |
13 |
354 |
217 |
137 |
20 |
Bradford |
13 |
341 |
218 |
123 |
18 |
Toulouse |
12 |
332 |
174 |
158 |
16 |
Widnes |
13 |
315 |
245 |
70 |
15 |
Featherstone |
13 |
330 |
283 |
47 |
12 |
|
Batley |
13 |
205 |
286 |
-81 |
12 |
Doncaster |
13 |
237 |
325 |
-88 |
11 |
York |
14 |
285 |
293 |
-8 |
10 |
Whitehaven |
13 |
266 |
358 |
-92 |
10 |
Halifax |
13 |
270 |
377 |
-107 |
10 |
Barrow |
12 |
203 |
339 |
-136 |
10 |
Swinton |
13 |
260 |
332 |
-72 |
8 |
Dewsbury |
14 |
168 |
419 |
-251 |
2 |
|