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[quote:18jc6kzm]I wish everyone would read bramleyrhino's post two or three times just to get it through some thick skulls[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote:18jc6kzm]Mr bramleyrhino speaks a lot of sense.[/quote:18jc6kzm] [quote="Jamie Jones-Buchanan":18jc6kzm]"I'd never forgive myself if a child of mine was born in Lancashire.[/quote:18jc6kzm]:1506.jpg



Quote: wrencat1873 "Cant argue with the "wrongdoing" at the time regarding Keighley, they had earned their shot at the "big time".
However, at present, that is not the key issue.
The "game" has to decide where it wants to be in 5,10,20 years time and how to get there.

IF we close the doors to "expansion" and bin off Catalan, Toulouse and Toronto and tell them to go and do their own thing, would that be a positive for RL is either the UK, France or North America or, for the game as a whole ?

It's all about investment into the sport.

IF Toronto was to become a major force in SL and be the catalyst to the sport putting down proper roots in North America, having one less European club in SL would be a very small price to pay and if done properly, with some serious additional revenue coming into the game then, where is the problem.

Supporters of lower end SL and top Championship clubs will feel aggrieved that their club is being wronged but, a vibrant, prosperous sport has to be preferable to having 20 or so heartland clubs struggling to make ends meet and following a sport with less profile than womens netball.

We are so far behind Football, Rugby Union and cricket (and still losing ground) that something does have to be done or, we have to accept that we are a small time sport only enjoyed by middle aged blokes from former pit towns and eventually, we mat have to revert to amateur or semi pro status.
This might not be the end of the world for some but, personally, I always thought that RL was far, far, better than that.'"


I agree with this. I really don't see why Budgiezilla has to throw around "expansion / football lover" (where the latter came from is only his guess) as its some sort of put-down.

I'm a fan of the sport first and foremost. I have my personal views on the state of the sport and I have my personal views on what I think needs to be done to address those issues. I've worked in marketing for a long time, and I've also worked with professional sports clubs, so I come from at least some position of experience.

I know my views don't always meet universal agreement, which is sort of what makes internet forums what they are, but I'm happy to put my reasons out there. If I felt that this sport could prosper by focusing its efforts in the heartlands, then I'll be happy, but my view is that the realities of modern sport don't allow that. Modern professional sport relies too heavily on television and commercial revenue, and we simply don't provide the audience that businesses want to (or at least, want to pay to) reach - that harms commercial income coming directly into the sport, and it harms our value to TV broadcasters. Yes, Keighley got shafted, but that was more than two decades ago. The realities of professional sport have moved on at a pace far greater than we have.

What I want is to see the best players possible, in the best facilities possible, and where those players are earning a fair income from their efforts. At the moment, we don't offer that. It's why we aren't attracting and retaining top talent, it's why clubs still aren't able to invest in facilities and why we have a salary cap that is around £1m less in real terms than it was in 1999.

The best way to address that in my view, given that the heartlands clubs clearly can't market themselves appropriately, is to tap into new audiences and new markets. Whilst America does represent a leap of faith, it is currently one of few viable options that we have.

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



Quote: Budgiezilla "Calm down, you expansion loving Penus !!! icon_wink.gif

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Quote: Call Me God "Keighley got 5 gates over 5k in a decade.....I'd take New York, London, Paris, Munich.......
Toronto failing would be yet another blow for expansion, with the "traditionalists" lining up to say "I told you so". and to be fair, IF they were to fail, those people would be right.
There has to be some longevity to the plight of ANY RL club and a 3-4 year plan, based on attaining SL status isn't good business, whether it be a pit village or a metropolis.

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JESUS WEPT :WALL: HOW MANY TIMES????? £20 a ticket and £15 on beer and merchandise.....so an away fan is worth £35. At best, 1,000 is the average away support split across 11 rounds and I am being really generous here, so Toronto, replacing say Wakefield will cost a SL club £35,000. The minimum turnover of a SL club is £4,000,000 so Toronto instead of Widnes is worth less than 1% of a SL clubs turnover. There are many valid reasons for and against expansion into America, but "AWAY FANS" isn't one of them. :BEAT::d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_76030.jpg



Quote: wrencat1873 "Toronto failing would be yet another blow for expansion, with the "traditionalists" lining up to say "I told you so". and to be fair, IF they were to fail, those people would be right.
There has to be some longevity to the plight of ANY RL club and a 3-4 year plan, based on attaining SL status isn't good business, whether it be a pit village or a metropolis.'"

The maths are simple...to be a viable RL club in the professional ranks of SL you need a 10,000 average gate and if you are "renting" a stadium, then 11k is the target.
Wire, Saints, FC, Leeds and the pies are the clubs that deliver at present.....Castleford and Catalans are close, but the rest aren't delivering. Well meaning owners like O'Neill, Hudgell, Davy, Hughes and Beaumont are good to have, but the reality is they back "yoyo" clubs who dwell at the bottom half of the table or in the 2nd tier and with the return to relegation any chances of "building" both on and off the park are again gone and it's all about avoiding the drop....I wonder what will happen once toronto get up......will they close the door behind them.

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Quote: Call Me God "Great debating skills there eusa_clap.gif

I was 'having a laugh' something you seem incapable of doing, bet you're great fun at Parties ! icon_biggrin.gif

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Hull KR the pride of East Hull.:



Quote: wrencat1873 "Toronto failing would be yet another blow for expansion, with the "traditionalists" lining up to say "I told you so". and to be fair, IF they were to fail, those people would be right.
There has to be some longevity to the plight of ANY RL club and a 3-4 year plan, based on attaining SL status isn't good business, whether it be a pit village or a metropolis.'"



Even though Toronto have had some help from the RFL (extending the league 1 salary cap, changing the way league 1 promotion etc). The way they started in the lowest league gives them a solid base. It's helped them build the brand. And show people in the city the game and club.
I don't think that the way the fixture list been done this year helps them. But if they go up no one can really argue against them as they would have done it the right way.
Funny enough to see where Toronto are, we need them to have a bad season where they really struggle. Then we'll see if crowds are going to stick with them etc.

I've said all along, to build a strong RL it's not about expansion v heartlands. It's about both moving together. Growing together, same rules for everyone. Accepting each other. Both need each other,

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