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| Quote Clearwing="Clearwing"I'll come clean here, I've no involvement with coaching whatsoever. As stated, my comments were opinion only and could well be incorrect. I gather you are a coach, so here's a couple of questions: is our apparent failure to produce decent halves in recent times a hangover from when drills/set patterns were in vogue?
Can we expect matters to improve under the mini game approach? If so, how long before the improvements become apparent?'"
I coached seriously (dabbled with a bit here and there) from 2007 until 2013, and have resisted the temptation to lose large amounts of time, so far, since arriving in SA
If I think about how coaching changed over the years, it's a lot. I'm 43, through school and my 20s, coaching consisted of little more than "run harder, tackle harder" with a little safety stuff in tackling, and the occasional "trick" of a team move or something. There was very little in individual technique. Lots of drills to practice skills, but it you had poor technique, you would just get better at that poor technique.
Since then, it's moved to real focus on individual skills, and learning those through mini games. Probably 2009 for it to get to me in Midlands RL. I remember hearing about how Spanish soccer made the change to training kids through lots of short sided, 3-7 a side mini games. We started coaching that way: technique instruction, mini-game to practice, break and question, mini-game, etc. It takes a long time to come through though to open age though. I was coaching U16s but it's almost too late by then. It's the ten year olds that matter, and so 12 years to come through. Remember though, our rivals are following the same approach.
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| Quote Richie="Richie"I coached seriously (dabbled with a bit here and there) from 2007 until 2013, and have resisted the temptation to lose large amounts of time, so far, since arriving in SA

If I think about how coaching changed over the years, it's a lot. I'm 43, through school and my 20s, coaching consisted of little more than "run harder, tackle harder" with a little safety stuff in tackling, and the occasional "trick" of a team move or something. There was very little in individual technique. Lots of drills to practice skills, but it you had poor technique, you would just get better at that poor technique.
Since then, it's moved to real focus on individual skills, and learning those through mini games. Probably 2009 for it to get to me in Midlands RL. I remember hearing about how Spanish soccer made the change to training kids through lots of short sided, 3-7 a side mini games. We started coaching that way: technique instruction, mini-game to practice, break and question, mini-game, etc. It takes a long time to come through though to open age though. I was coaching U16s but it's almost too late by then. It's the ten year olds that matter, and so 12 years to come through. Remember though, our rivals are following the same approach.'"
This. Also unfortunately there are many many coaches in the amateur game who still go by the principles of run harder and tackle harder and pass it to the big kid. They ignore the overtures from the RFL, Coach Ed, etc to go down the route of small sided games and still do drills they've copied from SL teams.
I've seen an u10's team do fitness training. Basically doing shuttle runs and dropping to the ground when the coach blows the whistle. An u10's team. It's f***ing ridiculous.
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| Leon Pryce alongside Widdop
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| Quote giddyupoldfella="giddyupoldfella"Leon Pryce alongside Widdop'"
Pryce will never play internationally again, but he's played well this year. Mickey Paea aside he's been Hull best player so far by quite a distance (not that big a feat though tbf).
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Player Coach | 15521 | Wakefield Trinity |
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| Quote Him="Him"This. Also unfortunately there are many many coaches in the amateur game who still go by the principles of run harder and tackle harder and pass it to the big kid. They ignore the overtures from the RFL, Coach Ed, etc to go down the route of small sided games and still do drills they've copied from SL teams.
I've seen an u10's team do fitness training. Basically doing shuttle runs and dropping to the ground when the coach blows the whistle. An u10's team. It's f***ing ridiculous.'"
This again; the fundamental problem is that the community game is pretty much the Wild West, with a load of Dad's wielding their coaching badges like a Sherrif's star, 'coaching' kids in ways that would cause many people to shake their heads in disbelief. There is far too little control, guidance, or setting of standards from the governing body; junior league officials are next to useless; and most clubs, due to lack of resources, are just relieved to find somebody, anybody, who will take on the coaching of a junior team. I'm sure some are well meaning, as I'm equally sure that some are downright horrible, but the standard of coaching in the community game is, as a rule, appalling - with some exceptions.
It all changes when you get to U15 of course - when you start to notice men in SL club badge emblazoned coats watching your matches from a discrete distance, making notes on a clipboard, and singling out the parents of promising young players in the car park afterwards; have enough of those promising youngsters, and suddenly you have SL players turning up to train with the kids, coaching sessions held at the SL club, or your coach being offered some role in the junior set-up at the SL club, on the understanding that he brings certain lads with him...
It's a mess, and it won't get any better until the RFL take the community game seriously and start supporting the jr clubs so that they a) do a much better job for the young people they purport to be bringing into the game and b) face sanctions if they don't use that support to behave appropriately.
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| Quote bren2k="bren2k"This again; the fundamental problem is that the community game is pretty much the Wild West, with a load of Dad's wielding their coaching badges like a Sherrif's star, 'coaching' kids in ways that would cause many people to shake their heads in disbelief. There is far too little control, guidance, or setting of standards from the governing body; junior league officials are next to useless; and most clubs, due to lack of resources, are just relieved to find somebody, anybody, who will take on the coaching of a junior team. I'm sure some are well meaning, as I'm equally sure that some are downright horrible, but the standard of coaching in the community game is, as a rule, appalling - with some exceptions.
It all changes when you get to U15 of course - when you start to notice men in SL club badge emblazoned coats watching your matches from a discrete distance, making notes on a clipboard, and singling out the parents of promising young players in the car park afterwards; have enough of those promising youngsters, and suddenly you have SL players turning up to train with the kids, coaching sessions held at the SL club, or your coach being offered some role in the junior set-up at the SL club, on the understanding that he brings certain lads with him...
It's a mess, and it won't get any better until the RFL take the community game seriously and start supporting the jr clubs so that they a) do a much better job for the young people they purport to be bringing into the game and b) face sanctions if they don't use that support to behave appropriately.'"
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the community game still under BARLA not the rfl?
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| Broadly speaking and excluding one or two genuine freak players I think any deficiencies in SL half backs' playmaking (or ball handling) abilities are relatively small. I think SL coaches right up from the juniors have gone a long way toward addressing the kind of problems which created scrum halves of the ilk of Andy Gregory who had to turn his back to pass the wrong way. Where we are seriously falling down is in the kicking department. But these issues are a product of inconsistent defensive capacities spread throughout SL before coaching per se.
Consider a top-tier scrum half taking the ball at first receiver on tackle three inside his own half of the field and outside the 20.
Does he:
a) Pass - knowing that his superior stand-off/centre combination pitted against a hopelessly inferior defence will likely yield anywhere between 10-20 yards on the play (perhaps more!) in a relatively safe option.
or
b) Kick - knowing that even if he manages not to kick it clean out on the full or down the throat of an onrushing fullback (who returns the ball to the half way mark) variables completely outside of his control (such as wind, an unlucky bounce etc.) may render even a technically well-executed kick a fail.
Direct observation suggests that most of the top scrum halves would much prefer option a). The problem is - by continually choosing option a) they further degrade their ability to execute option b). In effect, it's a feedback loop. Each successfully executed 3rd tackle passing play further undermines the scrum half's facility for executing a successful 3rd tackle kicking play.
All scrum halves perform this kind of mental risk-evaluation each tackle. But in Australia, where the talent pool is far more evenly spread, the decision to pass or kick isn't a foregone conclusion. Kicking on third tackle is an often-executed tactic. And because it is so - their scrum halves continue to get better. Practice makes perfect. The feedback loop is in a positive rather than a negative direction.
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| Quote bren2k="bren2k"This again; the fundamental problem is that the community game is pretty much the Wild West, with a load of Dad's wielding their coaching badges like a Sherrif's star, 'coaching' kids in ways that would cause many people to shake their heads in disbelief. There is far too little control, guidance, or setting of standards from the governing body; junior league officials are next to useless; and most clubs, due to lack of resources, are just relieved to find somebody, anybody, who will take on the coaching of a junior team. I'm sure some are well meaning, as I'm equally sure that some are downright horrible, but the standard of coaching in the community game is, as a rule, appalling - with some exceptions.
It all changes when you get to U15 of course - when you start to notice men in SL club badge emblazoned coats watching your matches from a discrete distance, making notes on a clipboard, and singling out the parents of promising young players in the car park afterwards; have enough of those promising youngsters, and suddenly you have SL players turning up to train with the kids, coaching sessions held at the SL club, or your coach being offered some role in the junior set-up at the SL club, on the understanding that he brings certain lads with him...
It's a mess, and it won't get any better until the RFL take the community game seriously and start supporting the jr clubs so that they a) do a much better job for the young people they purport to be bringing into the game and b) face sanctions if they don't use that support to behave appropriately.'"
I agree entirely. I'm not sure of the exact reach the RFL currently have over the amateur game but I'm of the belief the RFL need to take much more direct control over the amateur leagues (at all age groups, not just junior) and get rid of the league officials who continually ignore bad practice from coaches, officials and clubs in their league.
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| Slowly but surely the penny..........................
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| I often wonder how much time players at top level actually dedicate to perfecting skills like open field kicking, rather than thinking they've made it and don't need to work on their game any more?
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| Quote Andy Gilder="Andy Gilder"I often wonder how much time players at top level actually dedicate to perfecting skills like open field kicking, rather than thinking they've made it and don't need to work on their game any more?'"
I'd imagine it's more a team issue than an individual issue (though some might prioritise it more and some might put more effort into it than others).
To properly practice it you need at least 1 or 2 "catchers" representing the full back and winger. Plus someone to give an acting half pass, plus 1 or "defenders" putting pressure on the kickers. So I'd imagine most open field kicking practice is done as part of a team session running through sets.
These days conditioners very closely monitor the workload of players in training so as to try and get maximum effect on matchday. So, other than a small amount of extra practice on his own in a less than ideal scenario, any significant extra effort put into open field kicking would take the place of something else (defence, attacking plays etc) rather than be an additional piece of training.
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