I do not condone what Ben Flower did for one second, but I think we all need to stop and think about all the coverage for State of Mind. Flower will not be allowed to forget this for a very long time, what he did was inexcusable. I hope he gets the ban he deserves, but then we have to leave it and let time heal for everyone.

I don,t know if they are still there but Wigan had large pictures of what they call "car crashes" in the corridors at the training ground to encourage your above assumption, these pictures are FACT. Wigan Players are indoctrinated into playing Thugby.

I was not coached at ten to knock people out. When I was ten, coaches (this in union by the way) used phrases like 'knock his block off' when talking about, say, the biggest opposition player who was trampling on people. It's old fashioned and not how you'd coach nowadays, but it wasn't taken literally. Taken literally, 'knock his block off' is worse than 'knock someone out', but even a ten year old knew that it didn't mean to literally knock his head off his shoulders. That's what I meant when I said I'd heard 'worse' in junior rugby. The point is to put Wane's comments into context.

On the other point If you are correct about Flower, then he shouldn't play again, but I still think you're wrong.

I was hoping by now that sports psychologists may have posted something pertinent to the Wane half time team talk as show on Sky TV and the conduct of Flower,and whether or not there is any correlation.

I am curious because I was led to believe that you can overload an elite sports person with information,so brief words is the correct way to go.

I have tried to check sports psychology on the magic screen and I found one about soccer players controlling their own emotions ( and temper )

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/10568730/Mind-games-how-footballers-use-sports-psychology.htmlSAY ICE[/url

and one about putative elite sports people not retaining too much information [url=http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9b3jAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT213&lpg=PT213&dq=sports+psychology+++psyching+players+up+pre-game&source=bl&ots=WZ1_JkJ-Zj&sig=-QmS5pAFnaxJmCtR_Q8Xnc07CdI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OC08VNulL8i07QaqpIDoCQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sports%20psychology%20%20%20psyching%20players%20up%20pre-game&f=falseHERE[/url

Anything better out there...?

This was more than just trying to rattle a halfback. He was out, he was gone. But still that wasn't enough for Flower. Chilling.

It is surprising that no media outlet in this country has linked the team talk to the punch. Very surprising.

It has got amazing coverage, as I speak now an article has been put on the Guardian website about how Saints are refusing to rule out legal action against Flower and its the fourth Flower related article in the top ten sports stories. It's not good publicity either as the other articles include one reviewing all the previous incidents that have shocked rugby league including Hopoate and his wandering finger. Not the sort of news we need to remind people of.

Absolutely, a point I put to Giant Daz a few pages back after he suggested no-one should stand beyond Flower in the face of his guilt, that anyone standing by him was "as sick as the perpetrator". I didn't get a reply.

It's an issue of huge consideration. People on here are wailing and gnashing for Flower to have his career ended, to be banged up in jail, to be made an example of, for Wane to be sacked and God knows what else. You'd think given the tragic events surrounding depression and ex-RL players these people would think a moment. All over one, albeit very bad, punch.

Of course some other posters have shown their true colours over the subject:

I saw that, rugby league's top ten moments of ignominy!

Correct. The bloke screwed up massively and is absolutely distraught about it. He will get, and will no doubt accept, a harsh but fair punishment. For some on here, though, no punishment is enough. The rabid attacks show absolutely no human compassion - something they might want to reflect on the next time they make a really big mistake. Most other peoples big mistakes aren't played out over and again in the national media. The guy must be going through an unbelievably hard time. Demand justice for the offence, fine, but have a bit of compassion too, you never know, you might make a big mistake one day.

They have and I posted a link a few pages back. They wondered what Wane may have said before the GF given the video of the other team talk.

If this goes to Court (and I guess we all would hope not?) then the ramifications will be enormous and the coaching staff's role will no doubt be cross-examined under oath. For these reasons it would seem that the RFL and Wigan's owner(s) will need to act very, very strongly (if it is correct that the police / CPS may not follow it through if there is sufficient punishment).

You should read the Guardian article where Tony Smith talks about platers being influenced by watching MMA and raising coaching issues re Shaun Wane.

Potentially this is worse than maybe either of us think