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| Quote Superted="Superted"It is marginal, and you do see plenty of them, but it's still an illegal tackle - there has just been no consistency in dealing with these.
What the stand alone photo doesn't show you is that McLean comes in as a third man to a stationary tackle, where the 2 other defenders have stopped McKinnon moving, and wrapped up his upper body. He then grabs the inside of 1 leg and lifts his hips above his head - it is only marginal, a split second decision and I'm sure unintentional - he's just trying to effect the tackle and slow down a play the ball by putting McKinnon down - however, as soon as he makes the decision to 'lift', he automatically takes responsibility for ensuring a safe landing and stopping going over horizontal- this is something he could not guarantee or control in this instance. Instead of the lift, he could have used a technique to drag the player to the ground, but that takes longer and would likely have been penalised, hence the lift technique is coached as it's quicker, and has more impact.
Other than trying to slow down the ruck, there is no need for a 3rd man in a tackle to 'lift'. Usually the 2 man tackle is effective anyway, the third man is just trying to control the speed of the ruck - lifting is a dangerous way of doing this, as are cannon balls, 'stingers' into the ribs etc. They're grub tactics and as we've seen, once one team do it, it spreads like wild fire, as it's common across all of RL now - the authorities can easily clamp down on it by having stricter rules on exactly what a 3rd man in the tackle can/can't do, and hand out lengthy bans to those the break these rules, regardless of injury.'"
McClean is second into the tackle if not joint first(he makes initial contact at the same time as number 14 and well before number  .
There is no way on earth any serious person could say he was 3rd into the tackle. Nevermind 3rd man into a stationary tackle. Watch it again.  | | |
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Quote Cronus="Cronus"Some bizarre statements on here: he was imitating Inglis, McLean is a scapegoat, the ref should have stopped the tackle, it's just as much the NRL's fault...
As for the tackle, doesn't matter if it was marginal or not. He was tipped over and his neck has been broken. Simple as that. He tucked his head because he was about to be driven head-first into the turf. There was nothing he could do but try and move his head out the way - an instinctive survival reaction - which of course led to his neck bearing the weight of the impact with the ground.
As for McLean, as I've said there's no way he would have intended such an injury, but he was lifting to send a message of domination to his opponent. The ban is about right for me. It was an illegal tackle but the terrible outcome was accidental. However, it was still an accident brought on by their actions.
As for all these hundreds of similar unpunished tackles we apparently see go unpunished in the NRL (ie, the attacker being lifted past the horizontal), I'd love to see a few of them, because whenever I see someone tipped over head-first, there is generally a penalty or worse. It's an easy bandwagon to jump on, but in reality that just isn't the truth.'"
Try watching a few more games. The Melbourne - Newcastle game in which this incident took place had several identical tackles from both sets of defenders. This only doesn't happen all the time if you only count tackles that look spectacular or result in broken necks as tackles that go beyond the horizontal. Every serious person knows that the 3rd man in regularly lifts the legs and players regularly go past the horizontal.
The problem I think for a lot of people, yourself included, is that if there was no injury and no slow-motion replays of the incident in question you wouldn't have noticed it in the first place. Therefore it's futile to cite the tens of other examples that happen on a game by game basis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx_AkSVWvI (a week after, wasn't suspended)
And here's a couple of pics I found online from this round of games. Baring in mind Getty Images maybe has pics from 20 tackles for each game - if you were to look at snapshots of every single tackle you'd find an untold number of tackles past the horizontal.
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Quote Cronus="Cronus"Some bizarre statements on here: he was imitating Inglis, McLean is a scapegoat, the ref should have stopped the tackle, it's just as much the NRL's fault...
As for the tackle, doesn't matter if it was marginal or not. He was tipped over and his neck has been broken. Simple as that. He tucked his head because he was about to be driven head-first into the turf. There was nothing he could do but try and move his head out the way - an instinctive survival reaction - which of course led to his neck bearing the weight of the impact with the ground.
As for McLean, as I've said there's no way he would have intended such an injury, but he was lifting to send a message of domination to his opponent. The ban is about right for me. It was an illegal tackle but the terrible outcome was accidental. However, it was still an accident brought on by their actions.
As for all these hundreds of similar unpunished tackles we apparently see go unpunished in the NRL (ie, the attacker being lifted past the horizontal), I'd love to see a few of them, because whenever I see someone tipped over head-first, there is generally a penalty or worse. It's an easy bandwagon to jump on, but in reality that just isn't the truth.'"
Try watching a few more games. The Melbourne - Newcastle game in which this incident took place had several identical tackles from both sets of defenders. This only doesn't happen all the time if you only count tackles that look spectacular or result in broken necks as tackles that go beyond the horizontal. Every serious person knows that the 3rd man in regularly lifts the legs and players regularly go past the horizontal.
The problem I think for a lot of people, yourself included, is that if there was no injury and no slow-motion replays of the incident in question you wouldn't have noticed it in the first place. Therefore it's futile to cite the tens of other examples that happen on a game by game basis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx_AkSVWvI (a week after, wasn't suspended)
And here's a couple of pics I found online from this round of games. Baring in mind Getty Images maybe has pics from 20 tackles for each game - if you were to look at snapshots of every single tackle you'd find an untold number of tackles past the horizontal.
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| Quote Durham Giant="Durham Giant"I would rather abit of psychological damage and a bit of counseling to make me better than two years therapy learning how to walk and wipe my own booty.
What i would love to klnow is how the media in OZ are reporting it
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How parents looking at signing their kids up for sport are viewing it
It was an illegal tackle and it was punished.
Whether it was overpunished ifrom the point of the individual player is somewhat irrelevant.
Sometimes the credibility of the sport is more important.
I can just imagine how it would have gone down in the press if it had been a case of
" Cripple a player have three weeks off"
Although some s on here would have been happier with
" Cripple a player and have 10 minutes rest"'"
What people would like to see is for the NRL to take risk of injury seriously, not just throw around token gestures to protect the image of the game when serious injuries happen.
If tackles in which players were lifted beyond the horizontal were regularly and seriously punished - and make no mistake, they aren't - then we likely wouldn't have had this accident because the Storm players wouldn't have risked suspension. As it stands now, players are more than happy to lift in 3 man tackles and to lift beyond the horizontal because they are well aware that there is ZERO chance of serious punishment, except in the extreme, 1 in a million case that the person being tackled picks up a freak injury.
The NRL has no concern for player welfare. You said yourself they throw around bans to appease a baying media - that's it. | | |
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Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"Try watching a few more games. The Melbourne - Newcastle game in which this incident took place had several identical tackles from both sets of defenders. This only doesn't happen all the time if you only count tackles that look spectacular or result in broken necks as tackles that go beyond the horizontal. Every serious person knows that the 3rd man in regularly lifts the legs and players regularly go past the horizontal.
The problem I think for a lot of people, yourself included, is that if there was no injury and no slow-motion replays of the incident in question you wouldn't have noticed it in the first place. Therefore it's futile to cite the tens of other examples that happen on a game by game basis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx_AkSVWvI (a week after, wasn't suspended)
And here's a couple of pics I found online from this round of games. Baring in mind Getty Images maybe has pics from 20 tackles for each game - if you were to look at snapshots of every single tackle you'd find an untold number of tackles past the horizontal. '"
So how many of those tackles went unrecognised and unpunished by the officials?
That's my point. Some are suggesting the NRL have been letting these sorts of tackles go unpunished, which has led to the McKinnon incident. While I agree some of the punishments have been too lenient, many have also been fairly firm or entirely fair.
I watch NRL week in, week out and yes, grabbing and lifting a leg is common. But far more often than not if the player goes past the horizontal the referee is on it. Whether the punishments are correct is another matter. |
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Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"Try watching a few more games. The Melbourne - Newcastle game in which this incident took place had several identical tackles from both sets of defenders. This only doesn't happen all the time if you only count tackles that look spectacular or result in broken necks as tackles that go beyond the horizontal. Every serious person knows that the 3rd man in regularly lifts the legs and players regularly go past the horizontal.
The problem I think for a lot of people, yourself included, is that if there was no injury and no slow-motion replays of the incident in question you wouldn't have noticed it in the first place. Therefore it's futile to cite the tens of other examples that happen on a game by game basis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx_AkSVWvI (a week after, wasn't suspended)
And here's a couple of pics I found online from this round of games. Baring in mind Getty Images maybe has pics from 20 tackles for each game - if you were to look at snapshots of every single tackle you'd find an untold number of tackles past the horizontal. '"
So how many of those tackles went unrecognised and unpunished by the officials?
That's my point. Some are suggesting the NRL have been letting these sorts of tackles go unpunished, which has led to the McKinnon incident. While I agree some of the punishments have been too lenient, many have also been fairly firm or entirely fair.
I watch NRL week in, week out and yes, grabbing and lifting a leg is common. But far more often than not if the player goes past the horizontal the referee is on it. Whether the punishments are correct is another matter. | |
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Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"Try watching a few more games. The Melbourne - Newcastle game in which this incident took place had several identical tackles from both sets of defenders. This only doesn't happen all the time if you only count tackles that look spectacular or result in broken necks as tackles that go beyond the horizontal. Every serious person knows that the 3rd man in regularly lifts the legs and players regularly go past the horizontal.
The problem I think for a lot of people, yourself included, is that if there was no injury and no slow-motion replays of the incident in question you wouldn't have noticed it in the first place. Therefore it's futile to cite the tens of other examples that happen on a game by game basis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx_AkSVWvI (a week after, wasn't suspended)
And here's a couple of pics I found online from this round of games. Baring in mind Getty Images maybe has pics from 20 tackles for each game - if you were to look at snapshots of every single tackle you'd find an untold number of tackles past the horizontal. '"
So how many of those tackles went unrecognised and unpunished by the officials?
That's my point. Some are suggesting the NRL have been letting these sorts of tackles go unpunished, which has led to the McKinnon incident. While I agree some of the punishments have been too lenient, many have also been fairly firm or entirely fair.
I watch NRL week in, week out and yes, grabbing and lifting a leg is common. But far more often than not if the player goes past the horizontal the referee is on it. Whether the punishments are correct is another matter. |
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Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"Try watching a few more games. The Melbourne - Newcastle game in which this incident took place had several identical tackles from both sets of defenders. This only doesn't happen all the time if you only count tackles that look spectacular or result in broken necks as tackles that go beyond the horizontal. Every serious person knows that the 3rd man in regularly lifts the legs and players regularly go past the horizontal.
The problem I think for a lot of people, yourself included, is that if there was no injury and no slow-motion replays of the incident in question you wouldn't have noticed it in the first place. Therefore it's futile to cite the tens of other examples that happen on a game by game basis.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx_AkSVWvI (a week after, wasn't suspended)
And here's a couple of pics I found online from this round of games. Baring in mind Getty Images maybe has pics from 20 tackles for each game - if you were to look at snapshots of every single tackle you'd find an untold number of tackles past the horizontal. '"
So how many of those tackles went unrecognised and unpunished by the officials?
That's my point. Some are suggesting the NRL have been letting these sorts of tackles go unpunished, which has led to the McKinnon incident. While I agree some of the punishments have been too lenient, many have also been fairly firm or entirely fair.
I watch NRL week in, week out and yes, grabbing and lifting a leg is common. But far more often than not if the player goes past the horizontal the referee is on it. Whether the punishments are correct is another matter. | |
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| Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"What people would like to see is for the NRL to take risk of injury seriously, not just throw around token gestures to protect the image of the game when serious injuries happen.
If tackles in which players were lifted beyond the horizontal were regularly and seriously punished - and make no mistake, they aren't - then we likely wouldn't have had this accident because the Storm players wouldn't have risked suspension. As it stands now, players are more than happy to lift in 3 man tackles and to lift beyond the horizontal because they are well aware that there is ZERO chance of serious punishment, except in the extreme, 1 in a million case that the person being tackled picks up a freak injury.
The NRL has no concern for player welfare. You said yourself they throw around bans to appease a baying media - that's it.'"
I think you've hit the nail on the head with the token gesture comment.
For me, the NRL needed to take one of two stances, either they condemn it and hand out a big ban to show that it's not going to be tolerated. Or they say it was an unfortante accident, find him not guilty, but then pledge to do more to educate players on their technique and the dangers of poor technique in order to prevent this happening again.
To me 7 matches is a half measure when this is someone's career over. It's as though they've thought, well the tackle wasn't bad, but we better do something to keep people happy. If they genuinely thought he was guilty I would have expected 15 games plus. | | |
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| Quote Cronus="Cronus"So how many of those tackles went unrecognised and unpunished by the officials?
That's my point. Some are suggesting the NRL have been letting these sorts of tackles go unpunished, which has led to the McKinnon incident. While I agree some of the punishments have been too lenient, many have also been fairly firm or entirely fair.
I watch NRL week in, week out and yes, grabbing and lifting a leg is common. But far more often than not if the player goes past the horizontal the referee is on it. Whether the punishments are correct is another matter.'"
Well Docker wasn't suspended for his tackle on Graham last week. Why not?
The Beau Falloon one this week was on report, but that's it. The rest either resulted in a mere penalty or weren't noticed by refs. That one on Burgess the ref took about 10 seconds to call (probably had video ref in his ear), he wasn't even gonna call it and the commentators were going nuts.
If you had the inclination to start freezing the frame every time a players legs were lifted off the ground you'd discover that a lot of dangerous lifting tackles are ignored or the refs are far too soft on them when they do decide to "punish" players. Certainly the NRL don't react in any way that could be considered a serious deterrent, hence why they happen so many times each game.
I might make a compilation from one of the games next week to show you what I mean | | |
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| Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"Well Docker wasn't suspended for his tackle on Graham last week. Why not?
The Beau Falloon one this week was on report, but that's it. The rest either resulted in a mere penalty or weren't noticed by refs. That one on Burgess the ref took about 10 seconds to call (probably had video ref in his ear), he wasn't even gonna call it and the commentators were going nuts.
If you had the inclination to start freezing the frame every time a players legs were lifted off the ground you'd discover that a lot of dangerous lifting tackles are ignored or the refs are far too soft on them when they do decide to "punish" players. Certainly the NRL don't react in any way that could be considered a serious deterrent, hence why they happen so many times each game.
I might make a compilation from one of the games next week to show you what I mean'"
Because he was only charged with a Grade 1 Dangerous Throw (which only constitutes 125 demerit points) and submitted an early guilty plea. As each 100 points received by a player results in a 1-match suspension, the early guilty plea came into play. The answers are out there if you care to look.
A penalty is still recognition of the offence by the referee. The Sam Burgess lift was in reality about 2 seconds. 10 seconds in RL is another tackle at least. Yes, the ref paused but the penalty and 'on report' was given. Was that the correct decision? Not in my opinion.
Look, as I've said, whether the punishments in the NRL have been sufficient is debatable. But my point remains - some have been saying these tackles have been let go, ignored, unpunished. That simply is not true. Whether the punishments are severe enough is another matter and absolutely needs looking at. | | | |
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| Quote Cronus="Cronus"Because he was only charged with a Grade 1 Dangerous Throw (which only constitutes 125 demerit points) and submitted an early guilty plea. As each 100 points received by a player results in a 1-match suspension, the early guilty plea came into play. The answers are out there if you care to look.
A penalty is still recognition of the offence by the referee. The Sam Burgess lift was in reality about 2 seconds. 10 seconds in RL is another tackle at least. Yes, the ref paused but the penalty and 'on report' was given. Was that the correct decision? Not in my opinion.
Look, as I've said, whether the punishments in the NRL have been sufficient is debatable. But my point remains - some have been saying these tackles have been let go, ignored, unpunished. That simply is not true. Whether the punishments are severe enough is another matter and absolutely needs looking at.'"
But the point is they might as well be let go. What's a penalty - assuming there is a penalty, I still contend in a lot of cases there isn't - without a suspension, preferably a significant suspension. Is it any sort of deterrent? Not really. If it was a genuine deterrent then these tackles wouldn't be frequently found in every game.
The NRL doesn't take them seriously and it's a joke that McLean received 7 weeks, all things considered. The number of incidents that have happened after the fact (and there's threads about this on Australian forums if you want to look) shows that the NRL care nothing about said tackles. They've scapegoated the Melbourne player and really ought to be ashamed of themselves for how they've handled the entire affair - and how they've conducted themselves prior to the injury.
I don't know how you could take any position other than the NRL are idiots and the punishment to McLean is excessive given how the judiciary usually turn a blind eye to those tackles. | | |
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If 7 matches is the perceived wisdom for up ending past the horizonal. Does that mean Ferres should get the full 8 for going 180 degrees with no other players contributing???
Are we setting an example that has to be followed through now? Or will it be a case of, everyone walked away this time so 1 match.
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| Quote ChrisGS="ChrisGS"But the point is they might as well be let go. What's a penalty - assuming there is a penalty, I still contend in a lot of cases there isn't - without a suspension, preferably a significant suspension. Is it any sort of deterrent? Not really. If it was a genuine deterrent then these tackles wouldn't be frequently found in every game.
The NRL doesn't take them seriously and it's a joke that McLean received 7 weeks, all things considered. The number of incidents that have happened after the fact (and there's threads about this on Australian forums if you want to look) shows that the NRL care nothing about said tackles. They've scapegoated the Melbourne player and really ought to be ashamed of themselves for how they've handled the entire affair - and how they've conducted themselves prior to the injury.
I don't know how you could take any position other than the NRL are idiots and the punishment to McLean is excessive given how the judiciary usually turn a blind eye to those tackles.'"
You do know the NRL Judiciary, rightly or wrongly, take the severity of the injury into account when deciding punishments? He was charged with a Grade 2 dangerous throw (325 demerit points), and received 400 demerit points for the severity of the injury. With 100 points equalling 1 week suspension, there's your 7 weeks. Hardly a scapegoat when you break it down.
And it also explains why similar dangerous tackles that don't result in injury (the vast majority) receive more lenient punishments. Further, as with Docker, the early guilty can come in to play. | | | |
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