Sorry excuse my backward looking M62 myopia but 5 French players and swathes of empty seats. What is the upside? The French RL team is arguably worse than ever. If expansion means less people scattered over a greater geographical area then RL has achieved it.

Hard to disagree. The sport is a mess at the moment and I don't see it getting better anytime soon with the current numpty Rimmer in the RFL hotseat and the SL clubs only voting whatever gives them the best short term gain.

Meanwhile whilst we are growing the game in France, crowds are dwindling over here and broadcasting deals seeing huge cuts. By all means, push for expansion but sure to god it has to be a position of strength rather than desperation.

If SL and the RFL had a clue how to market the game they'd sell out all the showpiece games. Rugby Union has always managed it despite the games being a much poorer spectacle.

Craig Lingard suggested bringing back the old "double header" to Old Trafford. So play the million pound game and the grand final on the same day. I think that's a superb idea. I loved the old double header premiership finals.

Just over 9000 in 19K seater stadium. Not too shady imo

And besides, we have very little credibility in ragging on other teams for having 'swathes of empty seats'

Toulouse will be a great addition to the Super League and they are a great example of how to grow a team sustainably over a period of time. 9,000 attendance is a great achievement and if they can sustain that and grow in SL then fair play to them.

I think overall there is around 50% of their squad eligible to play for the French national team and to my knowledge they abide with all the rules in relation to overseas signing etc. so don't see what the fuss is about.

On the flip side, I'm gutted that we lose an away trip to France (for those who have not been, Toulouse is a brilliant place to visit) and instead we have to endure another year of Fev Rovers who continue attract an element of fans who seem to want to cause trouble everywhere they go. Needless to say that is two games I'll be avoiding as I don't wish to expose my young kids to being swore at, spat at and just in general be aggressively intimidated.

They might not be a great addition for long if the restructuring happens as rumoured. They’re going to have to sign some quality to be competitive enough to make the top 10.

Fev are an ambitious club but I can't see them ever becoming a top SL team. They're too small for that. In their heyday they were always the plucky underdog from a little town managing to spring the occasional upset but for the most part they yo-yo between the 1st and 2nd tier.

Good luck to them but like Bullinenemyland I've found Fev increasingly unwelcome in recent years despite the ground itself being very good. They've always had a few idiots in their following (anyone remember the 1989 YC Final?) and need to weed them out. Not that we're squeaky clean in that dept either.

I was reading Tony Collins's superb Rugby League in the 20th Century - A Social and Cultural History recently - I recommend it. The passage on the game between 1975 and 1995 is particularly good. We seem to be at a crossroads in the game that is very similar to the early 70s. Back then they struggled to fill stadiums. Crowds were at a low ebb. The game lacked leadership, people's habits had changed. The RFL brought in Oxley and Howes to replace Bill Fallowfield and they transformed things. The game's income from sponsorship went from 4k to over 400k in 7 years. A hundred fold increase. Crowds increased again and the game was on the up by the 80s. We need transformative change like that from the top again.

To be fair to Fev, I recall less than welcoming receptions at plenty of SL clubs such as Wakey, Wire and Saints. Plenty of songs with colourful language broadcast over Sky. We also have our element who recently let the club down so I don't see it as a reason for them not being deserving of a chance if and when it ever comes.

Clubs like Fev will be around long after some rich folk in France have got bored of funding a SL club. Granted a trip to Fev isn't as as appealing as a jaunt to France but let's not be so dismissive of teams that live and breathe the sport.

I'd argue Fev are a bigger club than the likes of Salford who look to be heading back to the wilderness after a brief flirt with some success and now uncertainty over their stadium.

Well I’m not singling Fev out for their undesirable element – just saying they have one, which is undeniable. I also said we do too and I didn’t see anyone on this thread cite that as a reason they shouldn’t be promoted. As for Fev “being around” long after “some rich folk get bored” well what can I say? If you take that attitude to its logical conclusion we should turn down anyone with any money unless they’re from an area that played RL since at least 1889. RL has been played in France for nearly 100 years now so they’re hardly “johnny come latelys”. In fact they have shown more commitment to the game than many over here when you look at how their game was banned during the war, had all its assets seized and couldn’t even call itself “rugby league” until the 1990s. Now they’ve got their act together on and off the field they should be fairly rewarded.



Salford have won plenty in their history – more than Fev in fact. However they’re both yo-yo teams if you look at the past 40 years so not completely dissimilar in terms of playing record. Ironically Salford were the leading club off the field in the 1960s and 1970s when the game was in the doldrums (like now). They diversified their business and were commercially successful. So much so that the RFL used them as an example for others to follow. If either Salford or Fev or the British game is going to thrive they need to look outside their immediate traditional audience as well as old fogeys like you and me.

Interesting points about the 70s.

I heard Paul Rowley discussing Toronto. He was very pro-Canadian RL and had coached there but he said the main issue was the total absence of a plan of what the game would or should look like in 10 years time and what the benefit of that would be.
There was nothing to judge anything by and asked why would any teams supporters agree to their being replaced in SL by a team with no cultural relevance to them.

I'm really interested in watching a tightly fought GB v France game but watching Toulouse is akin to watching racing from Turfontein or the IPL. SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant.

Quote: M@islebugs "SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant.'" Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false

Quote: M@islebugs "SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant.'" Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false

Thanks for link Bullseye, a very interesting read

I'd like to grab a copy of that book but - wow - the price is eye-watering! I'm going to keep a lookout for a reasonably priced second-hand copy.

Second hand ones on Amazon for about £20.