ok, what criteria are we judging donaldson on here?? yards per carry? tackles? line breaks? and after we bin him off, which players shall we look at to come in on similar salary levels??

there seems to be not comparing of abilities going on here, or acceptance of age or his recovery from injury. are we getting value for money, im guessing so but could be wrong. obviously we d all prefer hoffman or o donnell, but im guessing they earn a little more and arent queing up to play at the bulls

Having looked at Donaldson's stats nothing really stands out, which you'd expect.

He doesn't contribute anything outstandingly good in terms of attack or defence. If anything his stats are on a par with those of someone like Ian Kirke and thats the same in 2010 as well as 2011. Kirke averages more metres per carry and even takes the ball up more but averages fewer tackles. I would say thats Donno's stats of an average of 5.3m per carry and 6 carries per game show a lacking of anything in attack even for someone feeling their way back. The stats weren't much better in 2010 where he averages 6.4m per carry, 7 carries per game and the same number of tackles.

Comparing him with other players of a similar age he's some way behind the likes of Liam Farrell and Liam Watts.

I'm not sure what he's sent out there to do. Is it to make heaps of tackles? It can't be to get us over the gain line and it certainly isn't to break tackles or to create tries.

Think we need to remember he's still a young kid and is coming back from a bad injury. His stats aren't anything to write home about but frankly neither are anyone's in the team and some players have far worse figures such as Whitehead and Ah Van.

No doubt McDermott is trying to secure Donaldson's services for the Rhinos next year

i would expect kirke (is he a prop) to be more of a runner but i take your point. my point is that he is a young squad player who is recovering from a serious injury. i didnt know his stats, but he doesnt seem a massive amount different to other players at a similar level. he seems to be judged as though he is our stand out 2nd row and a large salary who should be dragging the team forward when that isnt his role imo.

The only players in our team who could reasonably be expected to make any meters are the wingers and fullback on kick return, the hooker out of dummy half and the props who crash it back into the ruck area time and again. Langley is called a loose forward but is in fact another prop. The second rowers and centres, similarly take it up as first reciever or nothing. Truth be told we're not actually capable of playing rugby as most of us know it.

I don't know what Donno's role is either but as we get no second phase because we consistently lose the collision and as we can't pass it out of the middle third without dropping it or getting smashed because we're so slow I guess he's not sure either. All this knocking the kid is a bit much considering some of the other experienced players efforts this year.

But what is his role? That's question that nobody seems to have an answer to

He isn't an 'enforcer' like Elima, or a 'go-forward' type like Langley at his best. Nor has he shown anything by way of ball playing, putting people into gaps etc. His main contribution is that he makes more than his share of tackles, but surely he needs more than that to his game.

When he first came, he was touted as a highly skilled ball playing loose forward / stand off. I imagined that once he forced his way into the team he'd be controlling plays with deft handling, short kicks and creative skills, but we've seen nothing like that. He just seems to be getting used as a battering ram second rower, a role to which I'd say he is physically ill equipped to play

It might not even be his fault, presumably he is doing what he's told. But when we are so patently lacking in creativity, if he has the skills, then now would be a good time to show them.

at his age he is developing his skill base but his main attibute is clearly defence. that being said, he seems to be a player who should compliment an effective pack and im not sure we have that atm. his speeds and ball skills (if he has these) will be suited to backing up breaks and exploiting space.

im of the opinion that the onus should be on the experienced players to lay the platform and then hopefully the youngsters can then come in and develop over time, eventually estabilishing themselves as one of the above. it is very tough for the inexperienced players to do this when the platform is not there.

Kirke has been dire this year, and regularly makes the fewest drives and metres per carryof all of the Leeds forwards. Not good if a young player can't perform above this tide mark after a season or so.

Well if it's support play and ball skills that he has then he's not had many breaks to back up. We're the 12th placed club in SL for clean breaks and 11th for tackle busts.

You make a good point about the onus being on senior players. However we have relatively few of these sort of players who can be leaders. We have Lynch, Langley (when fit), Diskin, Elima, Kearney and that's about it. It just shows the folly of allowing the likes of Morrison and Menzies to go and not replacing them. I think it's especially apparent when we look at players in the squad who are captain material. Back in the glory days you could pick 8 or 9 players out of the squad as potential quality leaders. Now it's hard to pick more than 1 or 2.

Since 2006 when the fall from grace began I did say plenty of times that we needed to be careful finding a balance between spending on youth development and on the senior squad. The balance was clearly wrong as we now have a young side lacking the leaders they need. Some seem to be picking up bad habits like ill discipline and lack concentration. Unfortunately the senior players are often just as bad.

To be fair to Donaldson he is much younger and more inexperienced than Kirke, playing in a poorer side with fewer accomplished players and he's coming back from a badly broken leg.

That said, I would say he would be better building his way back in the U20s or even on loan so he returns to the side full of confidence. Unfortunately injuries have put paid to that. As it is at the moment he contributes very little, but he's far from the only one and there are candidates more deserving of criticism.

i agree bullseye, but the likes of scruton and hargreaves should all be doing this, along with experienced players like sibbit. its that reason i think sibbit is a good edition, he does his job, takes the carries and makes the tackles.

that is where the problem in the team lies imo- players who dont do there job (out of position or not). ie centres should be a wide threat and hitting holes all day long. our line running is shocking.

2nd rows- make the tackles and run the channels, too many JUST driving forward.

props- lynch, scruts and hargreaves just dont appear to draw the men into the tackle. we then have no platform as the defence is set and cant break the line. this leads to us forcing the pass and turning over the ball. i think herbert is the biggest victim of this, he has to force the pass to the few people running lines off of a poor platform. he has shown when there are gaps he can find the right pass but id hate to play with at hb with our backrow and centres running off of me.

We're lacking quality fullstop. That's why we are where we are in the table. In terms of attacking play we're plain awful and can only really compete when the conditions stop the opposition from playing an expansive game.

I note a lot of people stating that our pack is alright but really it isn't that good. We're lacking hard runners and defenders in the backrow and an element of toughness mentally and physically. If the pack gets on top as you say the platform is laid. Too often we've been out enthused and beaten up front. Recent games versus Cats and Hull are good examples of this.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

That reminds me of the time a Bulls fan asked Mick Withers outside the ticket office whether he was looking forward to a forthcoming match against leeds. He just smiled and said "We love playing Leeds, they're a soft team". I suspect thats how other teams now regard us.