FORUMS > Bradford Bulls > HMRC Tax Issue |
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| Quote: Bulls4Champs "Is the reason why we need this money so quick because of the tax issue
Do we have debts to the RFL?
The Bank?
HMRC?
Other creditors?
I just don't know.
I really want to pledge, but I'm just not sure if I can hand money over to the current regime, Im terrified that this might happen 6/12/18 months down the line.'"
As far as I understand it a big chunk of the money received from rfl for odsal lease was used to repay a loan rfl gave us at beginning of 2011. Only money we could maybe owe to rfl would be ground rent if it's due. The tax liability duckett keeps mentioning is the image rights payment that's going to hit all clubs at some point (wakey excepted as their liability went when they went into admin last year). That should be a one off thing and is presumably the big bill that has a definite date attached to it hence the deadline for pledge.
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| If it is HMRC and I'm sure Addey can confirm this, I believe Nic class 1 tax is due 19th April which could be why there trying to get everything in for mid April without having to pay a late penalty.
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| Quote: bull at work "If it is HMRC and I'm sure Addey can confirm this, I believe Nic class 1 tax is due 19th April which could be why there trying to get everything in for mid April without having to pay a late penalty.'"
I rather fear we are talking far more serious issues than that mate.
I think you might find we have considerable arrears unpaid from earlier months. In fact, if I had to guess, I suspect (given the timing) the biggest element is unpaid VAT, although there must be an image rights tax settlement lurking somewhere and that will not be small.
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| Quote: bull at work "If it is HMRC and I'm sure Addey can confirm this, I believe Nic class 1 tax is due 19th April which could be why there trying to get everything in for mid April without having to pay a late penalty.'"
Tax and NI deducted from wages are due on the 19th of the following month, so yes, you will have to make a payment by that date. However I would be absolutely astounded if Bradford's monthly PAYE payment is anywhere near 500k. Sheffield Wednesday's monthly bill was only around half of that a month when they were in the Championship, and that was on average attendances of nearly 20,000 and the tickets were a lot more expensive than at Bradford!!
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| Quote: Adeybull "I rather fear we are talking far more serious issues than that mate.
I think you might find we have considerable arrears unpaid from earlier months. In fact, if I had to guess, I suspect (given the timing) the biggest element is unpaid VAT, although there must be an image rights tax settlement lurking somewhere and that will not be small.'"
If there were unpaid amounts from previous months, HMRC would more than likely issue the club with a winding up order. Pretty sure that hasn't happened (yet anyway).
From what I can gather as an outsider, you had bank borrowings that were secured against the stadium, however you sold it (or the lease, or whatever it was) so now in the banks eyes you have large borrowings but nothing to sell to get the money back. Banks get quite twitchy in this position and it sounds like they've asked for a repayment.
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| From today's T&A;
"Bradford say an impending tax bill and a changed banking lending arrangement has left them with virtually no cash."
So, on the basis of throwing out scraps of information indirectly and via third parties, yes the taxman is one of the people after our hide. Whether anything at all can be read into the use of the word "impending" I have no clue. Adey?
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| Quote: bull at work "If it is HMRC and I'm sure Addey can confirm this, I believe Nic class 1 tax is due 19th April which could be why there trying to get everything in for mid April without having to pay a late penalty.'"
PAYE tax and NI is due to HMRC throughout the financial year dependant on the companies estimated yield so under the assumption they pay monthly only the month 6th March - 5th April would be due by 19th April unless they had delayed in paying over tax deducted from staff when it was due.
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| I said it on another thread.
Apparently HMRC will petition the High Court for winding up if significant tax liabilities are not paid in the next couple of weeks.
Without going into a lot of detail, HMRC do not resort to this until there are significant arrears.
I also pointed out that, as well as PAYE, you need to consider VAT and perhaps the image rights settlement (although Hood told us, in his disingenuous replies at the forum, that that amount had not been assessed yet!)
If I had to guess (and it is a guess) I would say that, inter alia, the club has yet to pay the December VAT bill, due end Jan. That will be huge, because it will presumably catch all the season ticket VAT AND I suspect the income from the RFL re the sale of the lease. This is a pure guess, since I have neither asked nor been told what VBAT quarters and PAYE months are unpaid.
I suggest folk quit throwing around the normal PAYE dates (and its 22nd monthly anyway if you pay electronically) since those will not be relevant to this. You don't stare oblivion in the face just because you are a few days late paying your PAYE.
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| Quote: Hillsborough Lad "If there were unpaid amounts from previous months, HMRC would more than likely issue the club with a winding up order. Pretty sure that hasn't happened (yet anyway). '"
HMRC would only know if any PAYE tax is outstanding for the 2011-12 tax year once the P35 en of year cert is in at the year end which the employer has until the 19th May to submit,
And then HMRC have a Business Payment Supprot Unit in place to help businesses pay over any tax overdue
It clearly seems more to be to do with the image rights
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| More from YP:
"“But we need £1m for the short-term after some unexpected issues came up regarding our tax bill involving image rights.
....The legal issue surrounds the complicated compensation deal agreed with Leeds Rhinos over the Iestyn Harris saga."
Am I reading this right? We have copped a huge and unexpected further image rights tax bill based on the money we paid Leeds by way of compo? How can that be?
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| And why are we all having to try to work out all the details and reasons like this, why won't the Bulls just come totally clean and tell us what EXACTLY the problem is?
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| Quote: Hillsborough Lad "If there were unpaid amounts from previous months, HMRC would more than likely issue the club with a winding up order. Pretty sure that hasn't happened (yet anyway).
From what I can gather as an outsider, you had bank borrowings that were secured against the stadium, however you sold it (or the lease, or whatever it was) so now in the banks eyes you have large borrowings but nothing to sell to get the money back. Banks get quite twitchy in this position and it sounds like they've asked for a repayment.'"
NOT secured by fixed charge against the stadium. Only a floating charge. And in any case, as I pointed out elsewhere I very much doubt the stadium lease ranked highly on the banks valuation of its security, since if the club became insolvent then the head lease would almost certainly have been voided and been worthless!!!
I very much suspect that the excuse given by the bank, to try and avoid a PR disaster, was at best smoke and mirrors. For the above reason. Rather, I suspect they used the one-off income receipt (and maybe concern over the unpaid taxes) as an excuse to reduce their exposure.
I'd just add that, several years ago when I was negotiating a bank facility renewal with RBS for several £m, the manager - a keen RL fan - told me RBS had no appetite for lending to RL clubs and were keen to exit the sector as they were seen as very poor credit risks. And that was before the economy went down the toilet.
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| Quote: pulsator2k7 "HMRC would only know if any PAYE tax is outstanding for the 2011-12 tax year once the P35 en of year cert is in at the year end which the employer has until the 19th May to submit,
And then HMRC have a Business Payment Supprot Unit in place to help businesses pay over any tax overdue
It clearly seems more to be to do with the image rights'"
Mate, leave it?
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "And why are we all having to try to work out all the details and reasons like this, why won't the Bulls just come totally clean and tell us what EXACTLY the problem is?'"
It's another of these "secret deals". Like Orford's compensation, etc.
If we are getting stung again for the Harris deal, then it really is almost beyond belief.
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "And why are we all having to try to work out all the details and reasons like this, why won't the Bulls just come totally clean and tell us what EXACTLY the problem is?'"
Because the board love treating it's loyal fans who it's trying to beg money off like mushrooms.
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