The debate on here is good and well informed. I want to bring it back to Bradford though. For many of the reasons discussed above, Bradford council have proven time after time, nomatter which political party is in control, to be ineffective and short sighted. Dont forget. Our current RL stadium was only rebuilt 26 years ago!!! Obviously the events in the same year at Valley Parade and Heysel, and later at Hillsborough chnaged the way stadiums were designed, so the council cant be totally to blame.

As a Bulls and City season ticket holder, I feel that the idea that Bulls and City fans hate each other is a tad of a generalisation. BUt there is some definite division. Traditionally, the City was a north south split in soccer terms, as City and Park Avenue were at a similar level. Some people crossed the city, but not many. My Grandfather was an Avenuite and it was 15 years between them folding, and him starting to support City, and he loved his footy.
Because of this split there is a view that the more affluent areas to the north of the city provides many of the City fans, and that the majority of BUlls fans are from the city centre and south of it. I, see why people might think this but it cant be that simple can it?

the fact that the council rebuilt Odsal in 84/85, and put a new roof on the main stand in the early 90s makes City fans upset because the council did little or nothing when City almost folded in 1983. The perception is that the football club has to be self sufficient, but the rugby club gets help from public money. this is hard to argue against.

City fans will do anything to stay at VP, but now as both clubs have faced decline in the last 5-10 years, brought about by spending beyond their means, there needs to be some joined up thinking.
To suggest that both clubs have an equal heritage at their respective grounds and both should move is at best insensitive and at worse offensive. The events of 11/5./85 changed that. added to this that VP is in the main a modern stadium, that will be fit for purpose for many years to come is also a factor.

To be very simplistic, the money that the council has squirrelled away for the Odsal redevelopment should be used to create an elite stadium for both City and BUlls at VP. with the two clubs as equal tennants. They should make Odsal a community sports ground, and expand the training ground at Tong to accomodate both clubs (easy to do from August when Yorkshire Martyrs closes for good).

A smiple view for sure. But then again, why does everything have to be so complicated??

There is much to agree with in there Isaac, couple of points though.

I wouldn't use the word 're-built' for what happened in the 80s. What was called the 'old' stand, a wooden structure which had been the first stand built at Odsal, was pulled down and the 'pop' terrace built in its place and the 'new' stand (the current Tetleys) was extended into the paddock which stood in front of it and re-roofed. Incidentally this was done, not for the rugby club, but to secure the World Speedway Championship Final for the city and much of the money involved went into the track and other speedway items, though clearly the rugby club did benefit, even though we were actually left with one fewer stand.

You say the council did nothing for city to help in their financial crisis but I'm sure I remember them buying VP (with a same price sell back clause) and later selling it back, which was little more than a pretty large interest free loan.

I understand fully that the improvements to Odsal were for the speedway, I until the Dukes were shafted in 1997 I followed them all over!!! The point you make is valid, and highlights one of the things that some City fans hate. the fact that we as bulls fans dont acknowledge how lucky we were, and make out that we either didnt want the improvements, or didnt need it.

One thing is for sure. the status quo cannot be maintained regarding stadia in Bradford, as pretty soon one or both clubs could face oblivion via relegation!

Din't the council sponnsor City some time back when the had the Mythbreaker logo on the shirts? I'm not nit picking but City has had help over the year but nows the time for a joined up sport policy that works for everyone.

Interesting and informed debate on this thread.
I suppose it had to happen on RAB eventually...

That's absolutely true. Something HAS to happen with the Bulls or we'll potentially lose our spot in SL, though I'm nor sure just what, though I notice the club, outwardly at least, seem still confident, in [isomething[/i happening on the sports village front.

As for City, I can't really say, though I hope they don't get relegated. It would appear though that the cost of hiring the stadium from Mr Gibb is a big part of the reason for their financial problems and lack of recruitment. I've got to say the longer the village project stutters along the more a link up seems likely.

Incidentally, you say City fans don't like us 'pretending' we didn't want the improvements but, speaking as someone who was a speedway fan from the days at the Shay, I have to say that the vast majority of Bulls' fans would have much preferred the track to disappear and the money spent elsewhere ( I know it's daft, and the money wouldn't have been available but for the speedway final, but that's fans for you) and - not forgetting that it left us with one fewer stand - it's not really surprising that some would feel that way.

what always strikes me when this topic comes up is that there was never any mention of a groundshare at VP from the city side until the 15 million the council earmarked for the OSV became public knowledge. Ever since they've been making noises about a groundshare (as long as its at THEIR ground and not odsal or a new neutral ground of course). Seems to me they just see it as an opportunity to get their ground bought back for them and get them out of the crippling rent agreement they got themselves into.

theres two issues that concern me. First the blatant disinformation being spread, mainly by the head of their supporters organisation, that the council is giving bulls 15 million. This is NOT the case. The council has explicitly stated the 15 million is for areas of the OSV specifically excluding the actual stadium itself which the bulls and private partners have always been expected to fund themselves. The 15 million is for the infrastructure and other facilities (repacement for richard dunn, all weather pitches etc). Secondly what would happen a couple of years down the line if the premiership brought in the ruling they keep threatening about premiership clubs not being allowed to groundshare. Unlikely though it is at the moment, If city were ever in a position where a return to the premiership was a possibility would they expect us to do one?

Odsal and VP have the same capacity, besides if we were to share personally I would tear down the TL Dallas stand and the stand which says BANTAMS and I would make them into standing terreces.

when did football league start allowing standing terraces again? thought they were only permitted in the bottom end conferences.

Nevermind then forgot about that rule!!! But Rugby League is better when your stood !

agree with that entirely. purely personal preference but numbers stood on pop side compared to sat in stand tends to indicate majority of fans think same too. Went to every game at VP last time we were there and hated having to sit, combined with constant up and down as people went to loo/bars etc. On a standing terrace people can find a way through without disrupting everyone else. If they could find a way to incorporate a standing terrace for 3-4k fans at VP (maybe just keep it ssut for football fixtures?) then I'd be a lot less opposed to a move there if there was no possibility of improving odsal.

Agree entirely. However I don't think we should groundshare because the City fans will moan about ruining the pitch. Take 2001 for example, They were in Prem/just relegated, we were SL champions but because they were high up they thought that the Bulls were just messing up pitch week in week out and no possibility of groundshare. Now seen as though City are on the brink of being relegated into Conference they suddenly like the idea of Groundshare.

1. The location of VP is poor, rubbish parking, Manningham Lane would be packed every weekend.
2. Two sides of VP is big the other two are tiny compared.
3. TL Dallas stand looks poor, it makes the stadium look uneven.
4. Why should the Bulls share at VP with City when City arn't doing anything?

I think we should scrap the idea of groundshare at VP, either get the £15 million for OSV and have Park Avenue and City there, or build a Bradford Sports Complex with 25,000 capacity stadium, mixture of Black/Amber/Red and Maroon/Amber-Yellow seats. with 5,000 standing in front of 2 of the stands (like The Willows do). These will be closed on City games. Joint ownership of ground, each have to pay the same amount every month/year. You could even build this 'new' ground where Richard Dunns is. Use Odsal as the training pitch during season.

If thats correct then OT makes the cut, just, minimum with 2m spacing is 104m, my point was about long term where you'd need the 3m spacing for safety week to week giving you a minimum needed of 106m, which VP is not. But either way I'm not sure of the OT dimensions but they do have a full 100m in play for the GF, with in goal areas plus some spacing.

At VP as it is you need a short pitch for rl like we had when we were there, which is far from ideal but as has been said its probably easily fixed by taking out seats if we're joint tennants and isn't a real stumbling block to any move I suspect.

I do agree we need some joined up thinking regarding the long term future of professional sport in Bradford, to aid both clubs but I'm not confident given the track record so far.

from memory the flat pitch at old trafford is 106m. there is then another meter or so which drops at an angle to the hoardings so its actually closer to 108m between hoardings. Its fine for a single game but wouldnt be acceptable week in week out. AFAIK we had a dispensation from RFL to play in the smaller dimensions at VP as it was only supposed to be a temporary 2 year thing while odsal was redeveloped. Dont think they would acept it long term without alterations.