FORUMS > Bradford Bulls > Court Cases Brewing - Trouble ahead |
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| Cramer has a knack of winning these kinds of cases, he must see an angle and he must think he can win!
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| Can't we have Cramer on our pay roll in the future?!
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| Quote: Bully_Boxer "Can't we have Cramer on our pay roll in the future?!'"
But would he get paid?
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| And yet another saga begins...
You couldn't write this stuff.
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International Chairman | 632 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote: Mirfieldbull "It mentions using assts not having bought them, and there wasn't any goodwill at that point!!! '"
In the more generic sense, I think you are right that a lot of people were, are and continue to be at the end of their tether - but in the definition they provided (the value of a brand name or a customer base) there is actually a lot. All you'd have to do is point to the thousands of people (the customer base) turning up to watch the new Bradford Bulls (the brand) complete the fixtures of the old business.
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "Unless and until we know what specific legal claims are actually directed at the new Bulls, speculation is pretty pointless.'"
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| Quote: amberavenger "In the more generic sense, I think you are right that a lot of people were, are and continue to be at the end of their tether - but in the definition they provided (the value of a brand name or a customer base) there is actually a lot. All you'd have to do is point to the thousands of people (the customer base) turning up to watch the new Bradford Bulls (the brand) complete the fixtures of the old business.'"
Very tenuous link, but putting it that way you can see why they think there might be a way in to newco. IF with capital I and F this link gathers momentum and they start piecing more things that make newco liable it shows that the RFL haven't done their homework properly before allowing newco to start the season. As I said previously none of this would be happening had the RFL accepted Thornes bid, we would have had the squad we were thinking we were going to have and probably challenging. There had to be some question of the process somewhere and i'm sure this will bring things out in the wash
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| Quote: thepimp007 "Very tenuous link, but putting it that way you can see why they think there might be a way in to newco. IF with capital I and F this link gathers momentum and they start piecing more things that make newco liable it shows that the RFL haven't done their homework properly before allowing newco to start the season. As I said previously none of this would be happening had the RFL accepted Thornes bid, we would have had the squad we were thinking we were going to have and probably challenging. There had to be some question of the process somewhere and i'm sure this will bring things out in the wash'"
It's not that tenuous at all, we were watching Bradford Bulls last season, we are watching them this season, it's a continuation of the brand with the same customers without a shadow of a doubt and none of us would be posting on here if we thought otherwise.
It’s an exercise in technicalities isn’t it? The bit of paper saying “this is a totally new business” is the bone of contention, because in reality this totally new business has taken the place of the old one exactly where it left off despite “no longer existing”. If you were owed money by them, you’d think it was a total con job. I’m very surprised HMRC hasn’t come knocking so far for the debts of the old club, especially in light of us playing in the exact same league, stadium et al. Perhaps if this action is successful by the ex-staff they will.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s particularly harsh for any new owners to be punished for the sins of the past, and I’m not saying that in law they are liable for anything, (when it comes down to it I think the old owners and RFL are more answerable) but it’s utterly ridiculous to say this isn’t a continuation of the old “brand” when everyone knows it is, except perhaps in law. Then again the law is an ass.
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| Quote: Nelson "I think that TUPE regulations do apply (see below) as the business had a different owner but when insolvent/liquidated they are relevant when the business remains.
"The employees are unlikely to be protected under TUPE if the business is closing down. However, TUPE regulations will normally apply if it’s being rescued and taken over or transferred."
Link
You're probably wrong. Whilst I don't claim to be an insolvency law expert, the fact is that
a) TUPE Reg. 4 deals with the effect of relevant transfer on contracts of employment
b) TUPE Reg. 7 deals with dismissal of employee because of relevant transfer
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c) TUPE Reg. 8 states
... (7) Regulations 4 and 7 do not apply to any relevant transfer where the transferor is the subject of bankruptcy proceedings or any analogous insolvency proceedings which have been instituted with a view to the liquidation of the assets of the transferor and are under the supervision of an insolvency practitioner.
There used to be a debate about whether "pre=pack" administrations were fully covered by TUPE but in 2012 the courts finally held they are covered. However this was not a pre-pack, they tried but failed to save the company and so we had what is known as a "terminal insolvency procedure".
Ah, but, I hear you immediately object, all that might be overridden by some European law?
Indeed it might, in principle. But not here. The relevant European provision is Article 5 of the Acquired Rights Directive 2001 which deals with transfers of undertakings where the transferor is the subject of insolvency proceedings. Article 5 is specifically implemented into English law by TUPE. and Reg. 8 is pretty much verbatim taken from Article 5.1.
But, it is only Reg.s 4 and 7 which are disapplied. So stuff like the duties to inform and consult still apply where relevant.
Anyhoo, so far, so straightforward. Except, except. To me, (but with caveat, what do I know?) there is a potential banana skin in the words " insolvency proceedings which have been instituted with a view to the liquidation of the assets". - obviously our insolvency was not; they did their best to save/sell the business. It was only at the end when they decided it had to be liquidated. So the proceedings certainly weren't "insitituted" i.e. started, with a view to liquidation. Practically no company insolvency ever is, though, and so i doubt it would be interpreted that way as if it was, it would make the provisions meaningless. And such few cases as i've glanced at haven't been interpreted in that way.
But TUPE is a good example of a drafting mess, and as such, a technical lawyer's paradise, so I'm sure there is scope for finding a bathful of new loopholes to at least argue, with a bit of effort. And that's without knowing any details of what it is the claimants and their lawyers will allege.
So far as company debts are concerned, Gledhill tweeted last night that the RFL withheld £150 distribution from the new company to meet the old company's "rugby debts". So our funding for the year was thus £15k. If that's true, how you square it with not being liable, you'd have to ask big Nige.
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International Star | 1977 | |
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| Quote: amberavenger "It's not that tenuous at all, we were watching Bradford Bulls last season, we are watching them this season, it's a continuation of the brand with the same customers without a shadow of a doubt and none of us would be posting on here if we thought otherwise.
It’s an exercise in technicalities isn’t it? The bit of paper saying “this is a totally new business” is the bone of contention, because in reality this totally new business has taken the place of the old one exactly where it left off despite “no longer existing”. If you were owed money by them, you’d think it was a total con job. I’m very surprised HMRC hasn’t come knocking so far for the debts of the old club, especially in light of us playing in the exact same league, stadium et al. Perhaps if this action is successful by the ex-staff they will.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s particularly harsh for any new owners to be punished for the sins of the past, and I’m not saying that in law they are liable for anything, (when it comes down to it I think the old owners and RFL are more answerable) but it’s utterly ridiculous to say this isn’t a continuation of the old “brand” when everyone knows it is, except perhaps in law. Then again the law is an ass.'"
Very easy to see why they have been dragged in, never looked at it that way
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| Very glibly, they are saying all contracts were still valid? Hudds, HKR, Sheff and Salford could theoretically be done for tapping up then?
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| Quote: amberavenger "It's not that tenuous at all, we were watching Bradford Bulls last season, we are watching them this season, it's a continuation of the brand with the same customers without a shadow of a doubt and none of us would be posting on here if we thought otherwise.
It’s an exercise in technicalities isn’t it? The bit of paper saying “this is a totally new business” is the bone of contention, because in reality this totally new business has taken the place of the old one exactly where it left off despite “no longer existing”. If you were owed money by them, you’d think it was a total con job. I’m very surprised HMRC hasn’t come knocking so far for the debts of the old club, especially in light of us playing in the exact same league, stadium et al. Perhaps if this action is successful by the ex-staff they will.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s particularly harsh for any new owners to be punished for the sins of the past, and I’m not saying that in law they are liable for anything, (when it comes down to it I think the old owners and RFL are more answerable) but it’s utterly ridiculous to say this isn’t a continuation of the old “brand” when everyone knows it is, except perhaps in law. Then again the law is an ass.'"
I don't think the "Bradford Bulls" part is relevant. It's all to do with the company that own the Bradford Bulls.
I remember watching one of those Sheriff/bailiff and the court ordered a car company to pay back a customer for selling him a faulty car. When the Bailiffs arrived, the name on the banner was the same, the premises were the same and the guy running it was the same. The cars had all been sold to another company owned by the same guy so the sheriffs/baliffs couldn't get a penny back.
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| Don't suppose the "not actually being wound up" means we could get some of those points back? Reducing it to six, just for being in admin, would suit us....
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| Quote: Bulliac "Don't suppose the "not actually being wound up" means we could get some of those points back? Reducing it to six, just for being in admin, would suit us....'"
worth a try.
It seems nothing is clear apart from we always manage to get the $h1tty end of the stick whatever we do
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| Yep. Six points back.
Plus all the players that were tapped up and have gone elsewhere. Plus compo from those clubs for breaking the rules.
Just wait and see...
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