FORUMS > Bradford Bulls > Bulls finances 'considerably worse than originally thought' |
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 28357 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2024 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
973_1515165968.gif Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif |
|
| Quote: Adeybull "...
And I have no idea whether Hood WOULD have been able to deliver the required further investment had CC not intervened how and when he did. IMO he very much implied at the time that he would, and it sounded convincing enough for me to feel the cause was not lost. My point is that we'll now never have the opportunity of finding out. Whether Hood is incensed or relieved about that, I guess only he will know?'"
Indeed. And, surprisingly (not!) he's saying as much about it now he's out, as he was when he was in. I don't know what he'll be doing next, but I'm betting it won't be a Director of Communications anywhere
Do you suppose the T&A are even asking him for comments on all this stuff? Or even if they're not, now he is no longer in post, if something is claimed (eg the financial sit. is "believed to be" "far worse" than "was thought"icon_wink.gif wouldn't you be now shouting your case from the rooftops if you were him? I know I would be, if huge aspersions were being cast.
Some may say his silence is some form of tacit acceptance that the allegations have substance, but in reality he has a track record for hardly ever commenting on anything much at all. I suppose it's a free country, but can't understand why his PR is so bad.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14145 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2020 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
45_1302643626.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45.jpg |
|
| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "Indeed. And, surprisingly (not!) he's saying as much about it now he's out, as he was when he was in. I don't know what he'll be doing next, but I'm betting it won't be a Director of Communications anywhere
If Caisley's review results in administration (as I think many of us have always asssumed it would) then the conduct of the directors will be very much under the spotlight. Indeed, the administrator is required to request information about the directors' conduct from creditors etc. I guess that may be one reason why he is saying nothing right now? Especially given his adversary is an experienced litigation lawyer not known for being gentle?
I understand that the T&A has indeed sought comments and information. For whatever reason - which may or may not include the above - he seems content to let the victors make all the PR running.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 10969 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2023 | Jun 2022 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
1271.jpg Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
Build Bridges NOT Walls:1271.jpg |
Moderator
|
| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "Indeed. And, surprisingly (not!) he's saying as much about it now he's out, as he was when he was in. I don't know what he'll be doing next, but I'm betting it won't be a Director of Communications anywhere
Maybe he's waiting for the review to be concluded or maybe he'll say nothing even then, who knows?
He's far from being alone in this regard though; as a supporter for over fifty years I can safely say the club has rarely made more information available than it absolutely had to. CC certainly didn't in his previous stint at the club, so unless they change the habits of a lifetime, things are unlikely to change for the better any time soon.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14145 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2020 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
45_1302643626.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45.jpg |
|
| Quote: Cibaman "I cant really understand then why he took the fans money. If he wasnt sure that he had the backing of the shareholders to make a deal then he would have been better to have walked away at that point.'"
It may look quite strange, looking back? When they did not immediately announce the pledge results as promised, I assumed it was because they had to be very clear in their minds that by taking the money they had a realistic expectation of avoiding insolvency, and that the terms of the pledge had indeed been met. Given how close it was, and that there were bound to be some bogus pledges in there, that made sense to me.
BUT...if they HAD satisfied themselves that they should thereby avoid insolvency (even if that would mean e.g. selling players or cost-cutting), then I reasoned that as directors their responsibility was to call the pledges in to ensure they DID indeed avoid insolvency. Had they NOT done so, I reasoned they could be in breach of their fiduciary responsibilities to take all reasonable steps to avoid insolvency. So it may be that they had no choice, regardless of whether they were subsequently booted out. And to my knowledge none of the Caisley cabal ever said in public that they disagreed with the pledge and that it should not be called in? (If that is incorrect, happy to see the detail and acknowledge).
There may well have been other motives and reasons, somne of which have been speculated upon on here. And calling in the pledges certainly made it far harder for the successors to go down the administration route from day 1.
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 6038 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2017 | Feb 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
: |
|
| Quote: Adeybull "It may look quite strange, looking back? When they did not immediately announce the pledge results as promised, I assumed it was because they had to be very clear in their minds that by taking the money they had a realistic expectation of avoiding insolvency, and that the terms of the pledge had indeed been met. Given how close it was, and that there were bound to be some bogus pledges in there, that made sense to me.
BUT...if they HAD satisfied themselves that they should thereby avoid insolvency (even if that would mean e.g. selling players or cost-cutting), then I reasoned that as directors their responsibility was to call the pledges in to ensure they DID indeed avoid insolvency. Had they NOT done so, I reasoned they could be in breach of their fiduciary responsibilities to take all reasonable steps to avoid insolvency. So it may be that they had no choice, regardless of whether they were subsequently booted out. And to my knowledge none of the Caisley cabal ever said in public that they disagreed with the pledge and that it should not be called in? (If that is incorrect, happy to see the detail and acknowledge).
There may well have been other motives and reasons, somne of which have been speculated upon on here. And calling in the pledges certainly made it far harder for the successors to go down the administration route from day 1.'"
I suppose I was taking him at his word when he said we needed £1m in total and quickly. I can't see how we could possibly raise £500k in the short term from player sales and cost cutting. Hence my assumption when I pledged was that he was genuinely confident of securing additional investment. And whilst it was obvious that there were issues with CC and other shareholders, I assumed, when he called in the pledge, that some sort of agreement had been reached to allow him to do a deal.
Obviously any sale or acquisition can collapse at the last minute , but it shouldnt have been due to lack of support from major shareholders as this should already have been secured.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 228 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2016 | Dec 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
67223_1333982532.png Bradford Till I Die!!!:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_67223.png |
|
| Anyone else wondering where this investment caisley had already lined up is...the one who he/she/they said wouldn't invest under the current board. The board has gone and still no word on investment.
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14145 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2020 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
45_1302643626.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45.jpg |
|
| I'm not wondering at all.
So far, its playing out precisely as I expected and forecast on here.
Still time for me to be proved wrong. I hope I am.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15035 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Aug 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
21910.gif [u:b26ka63j][size=150:b26ka63j][color=black:b26ka63j][b:b26ka63j]I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying.
[/b:b26ka63j][/color:b26ka63j][/size:b26ka63j][/u:b26ka63j]
[size=117:b26ka63j]Michael Jordan[/size:b26ka63j]:21910.gif |
|
| Oh no lets all still blame that nasty Mr Caisley for shafting over Mr Hood who had done such a sterling job.
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 228 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2016 | Dec 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
67223_1333982532.png Bradford Till I Die!!!:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_67223.png |
|
| Quote: redeverready "Oh no lets all still blame that nasty Mr Caisley for shafting over Mr Hood who had done such a sterling job.'"
Who's blaming Caisley for anything. I was simply asking others if they wondered where this mystery investor was.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 8877 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2023 | Feb 2023 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
Others/combustable.gif Red Amber and Black Fantasy Rugby League Champion 2012.
By far the most sensible posts on this thread have come from mystic eddie. - copyright Ewwenorfolk 09.04.2013
Aye, and Eddie is hinting at it too. And, as we all know:
Mystic Eddie has been right all along! - copyright vbfg 05.01.2017:Others/combustable.gif |
|
| Quote: Bradford Badger "
The board needs people like ME to make it interesting, but comments like the one he posted there just show what sort of person he is.
'"
Care to explain? Hood mugged you off, not me. Whatever must you think of him then?
In fairness, he probably needed it given all the "brilliant" work he did for free.
Still, I would rather be the "pantomime villain" than a pompous, self righteous, club apologist any day of the week. At least I will not end up with egg on my face.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 8877 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2023 | Feb 2023 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
Others/combustable.gif Red Amber and Black Fantasy Rugby League Champion 2012.
By far the most sensible posts on this thread have come from mystic eddie. - copyright Ewwenorfolk 09.04.2013
Aye, and Eddie is hinting at it too. And, as we all know:
Mystic Eddie has been right all along! - copyright vbfg 05.01.2017:Others/combustable.gif |
|
| Quote: bfdbull1979 "Who's blaming Caisley for anything. I was simply asking others if they wondered where this mystery investor was.'"
Steady on squire, I am fairly certain RER was not referring to you.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 15035 | |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2024 | Aug 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
21910.gif [u:b26ka63j][size=150:b26ka63j][color=black:b26ka63j][b:b26ka63j]I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying.
[/b:b26ka63j][/color:b26ka63j][/size:b26ka63j][/u:b26ka63j]
[size=117:b26ka63j]Michael Jordan[/size:b26ka63j]:21910.gif |
|
| Quote: bfdbull1979 "Who's blaming Caisley for anything. I was simply asking others if they wondered where this mystery investor was.'"
Wasn't aimed at you.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1934 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2011 | 14 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2023 | Mar 2023 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
: |
|
| Quote: Adeybull "Not really, though. Had he accepted the whole lot without a fight, he would almost vertainly have been in breach of his fiduciary and other responsibilities as a director, quite apart from taking a decision that would have led to immediate insolvency and therefore loss to creditors. The liquidator, funded no doubt by the Creditors' Committee led by Council and HMRC, could have taken him and the rest of the board (remember...we had Mr Agar, Mr Bates, Mr Coulby there who collectivley owned far more shares than he did) to the cleaners. IMO.
I agree with you that we need some means of having a clear-out and starting again in terms of ownership. Preferably not involving ANY of the present lot, but no chance of that I fear.'"
The pursuance of breaches of fiduciary duty invariably involve the charge of 'prefering ones own interest over the interests of ......' ie preferential payments. Hood could have made the deal with Leeds and never paid them. Upon their final demand he could have entered administration. In such circumstances the liquidator would only pursue a matter if, he/she believed there was significant monies recoverable from the directors, or an act of fraud. As long as Hood hadn't paid himself, paid certain creditors above others, or made any other 'odd' payments to directors there would have been little in the way of comeback.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 850 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2014 | Jul 2013 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
Never liked Kevin Costner, or any other Robbing Hood!!!!: |
|
| As has been the case on this forum for the last six or seven weeks, there is much assumption and guesswork, punctuated by Adey giving us his reasoned ideas as an acountant. theres the usual, "hood's a liar" versus "Caisley scuppered the pledge" and the truth is we will never know!
All I ask is: Why did the club announce Elliot Whitehead's new contract when they did? If we are talking about knowingly trading whilst insolvent, this is a bombshell for Hood and Bennett isnt it?
OK - Worst case scenario - Administration.
The clubs financial commitments going forward on contracts already signed are cancelled. This would include suppliers, players and staff. The newco is then able to negotiate new contracts going forward. we may lose some dead wood, but also risk losing some that we would want to keep. Would the contract with Bradford MDC for Tong be cancelled??? Do we own, or rent Tong? I am sure that as part of the review, these are the type of discussions taking place, not just looking at where we are, but what we need to function!
the club will receive a points deduction upon entering administration - costing a possbile playoff place (but perhaps not!) and a likely share of prize money.
We may be risking our license at the next review for SL - but are we really??? would the RFL bin the BUlls where it had already kept Wakefield in under similar circumstances, and financially supported the London club and the Welsh club over a number of years? Also, if we are not in SL, what is ODsal worth to them? This could be Hood's legacy. Giveing the RFL odsal to protect our Superleague status!
Our reputation to business partners and ability to get anything on credit will go through the floor - but isnt it there already?
A less complicated shareholding is created. The current shareholders are annoyed, but perhaps in a year or two of prudent trading, a new owner comes along and buys Caisley et al out? Long term stability could be acheived much more quickly?
I am no expert, and have no more intimate understanding of running a sports club than anyone else on here. Could it be that simple?
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14145 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2020 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
45_1302643626.jpg :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_45.jpg |
|
| Quote: M@islebugs "The pursuance of breaches of fiduciary duty invariably involve the charge of 'prefering ones own interest over the interests of ......' ie preferential payments. Hood could have made the deal with Leeds and never paid them. Upon their final demand he could have entered administration. In such circumstances the liquidator would only pursue a matter if, he/she believed there was significant monies recoverable from the directors, or an act of fraud. As long as Hood hadn't paid himself, paid certain creditors above others, or made any other 'odd' payments to directors there would have been little in the way of comeback.'"
Disagree. Although we may be arguing over semantics, since I am including the wider responsibilities under the Companies Act and the Insolvency Act.
Had he settled with Leeds, that act would have immediately rendered Bulls insolvent. He would have immediately have had to put the club into formal insolvency. No waiting for final demand or anything. And the liability to Leeds would have been crystalised at £3.2m (or whatever), whereas without settlement then in any insolvency no insolvecny practitioner was ever going to admit a proof of debt for more than a fraction of that amount.
And Hood and his fellow directors would then have been under the spotlight for WHY they settled with Leeds, KNOWING that it would lead to immediate insolvency and therefore loss to ALL the creditors, instead of fighting the case which may have (and did mean) insolvency was avoided, or at worst that the loss to the other creditors was likely to be less.
And, more to the point, how long they knew they were going to settle? And what liabilities did the club take on in the meantime? When they would clearly have been trading whilst insolvent, and in the face of the huge agreed liability to Leeds likely to sweep up most of any funds available for the unsecureds, would struggle to demonstrate it was in the best interests of the body of the creditors that they continued trading.
Plus, of course, they would be exposed anyway for agreeing a commitment with Leeds that they knew the company had no chance of honouring.
Plenty of fertile ground there for creditors who had lost out (especially the Council and HMRC) to seek to recover their losses from any source. And for the administrator, on behalf of the company to sue its directors for recovery of losses through gross negligence or whatever.
Although I've had a fair bit of experience in this field, the likes of the 'Vark would be better qualified to go into the specific legal issues and remedies. But I have seen pretty well everything I've
outlined above pursued in some form or another at one time or another.
|
|
|
|
|
|