they are much better than pen pushers/students like you tony who give nothing to thefamilies of our country

you are not a brit

Agree totally with that sentiment. However, don't really see that the history in your first few sentences - true enough though it may be - is pertinent to the issue under discussion?

even when we lost in vietnam the soldiers were still heroes its about doin the stuff the average person would be too scared to, for your country

Simply pointing out that the narrative of the armed forces being our guarantee of freedom is historically contingent and dependent upon whether or not our 'freedoms' coincided with the wishes of the elite at the time. It was a point made directly in response to the quote I cited.

I've already stated what my position is on clapping the military at Odsal today.

Apart from the fact we weren't in Vietnam, so you'd have to search out some French of U.S. veterans to clap. I'm presuming you're either very young, a 'joke' poster, or the Punisher back in another guise?

No it isnt, I'm allowed my opinion anyway. The service folk that are sent kill in foreign lands today have no bearing whatsoever with how my opinion is recieved. I know what benefits me, and it's not men out in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Do you want some praise for your service or something? Because there's plenty willing to offer you it. But go away and shine your medals before you start lecturing me, I couldn't care for the slightest in your service.

I've pondered whether I would clap since I read the first post yesterday. I would probably have moved my hands together in a confused way that made no noise, in a show of sympathy rather than admiration. I have friends & family who have been to Iraq, now my B-in-L, who is the only soldier I have talked to who has stated he joined up to make a positive difference, is due to go to Afghanistan. I asked him 18 months ago why we are in Afghanistan, he couldn't tell me clearly; as he is a major you would think he would know. I asked him again a few weeks ago during another drunken debate, he was a bit more clear - it is now the focal point for global terrorism A movement I would argue we are largely responsible for focussing. We are also complicit in the deaths & abuse of thousands of innocents in those countries. As we have been throughout history. So when presented with a bunch of brave young men I don't think of them as heroes, I have confused thoughts of naiive political pawns who are being used to justify an illegal & immoral war. I love & admire my B-in-L more than nearly anyone I know, I don't do heroes, but I wish I had the same degree of commitment & courage as this outstanding young man who, each time I meet him, I fear it might be the last.

I've never have or will seek praise for my service and whilst you are very welcome to your opinion again ranting about our forces been in iraq and afghanistan as having no benefit is mis-informed.
I'm not bothered if you care or not what bothers me is alck of respect from someone who clearly doesn't know the full facts of what the armed forces bring.

I know this much, they bring me nothing. When they do, they will be praised and applauded. Until then they can keep seeking the praise from you and many others. Ive nothing to applaud them for.

The Iraqis didn't have nuclear weapons, so it would have been extremely unlikely.

And the army would have stopped a nuke exactly how?

We assisted in creating this monster we now have to control. What benefits do we get from being there? Access to oil & drugs?

If it was that straight forward and transparent you'd have a point,but that isn't the case.
Check what's been going on there before 9/11 and look deeper at how these countries were run and who/what they supported!!

Oh I see. Manipulating the democratic process, supporting unelected dictatorships & complicit in the use of torture & oppression. We can't stand for that. Never have, never will.

I for one fully respect the armed forces and what they stand for and would have applauded had i been at the game. I wont however treat them all as heroes, some have carried out truely Heroic acts above and beyond what is expected when they carry out their DUTY and deserve the tag "hero" others have carried out the job they signed up for and as i said they deserve respect for doing the job, lets not forget they dont choose where they are stationed or the enemy they fight they carry out their duty for Queen and country (dont get me started on the monarchy).

They do choose to join the army though don't they. What do they expect to be doing? It's not tiddly winks is it?