I doubt he RFL will ever admit to its stupid folly. It would set a precedent, best just don't do it again and, like the war in German company, just don't mention it.

You are both right and wrong, but it doesn't matter, the end result is RFL run the game, if you think they are entirely the puppets of SLE and with no independent thought or action then so be it but I was discussing the fine, and not the small print.

In a way you are probably right, in that the lead may have come from other SL clubs though if it did then the RFL, being the governing body and all that, could have led rather than followed. So far as SL is concerned, what are you saying - that there is, in reality, no governing body, and while on paper they entirely run the sport, but in fact the RFL is a sham, a shadow, a non-existent smokescreen?

They aren't. Of course the SL clubs could vote with their feet if they fell out with RFL and split off or something but as we stand, the RFL does run the game, and does apply sanctions, and does have the power to apply the sanctions, and has the sole power to decided whether to apply any given sanction or not to apply it.

So whenever any discussion took place between SLE and RFL the RFL could have said "as the governing body, no, we do not countenance a one season distribution penalty". And should have.

The SLE clubs in contrast do not have the power to impose sanctions, financial or otherwise.


Yes and no. The sanction that was agreed was that the Bulls would receive half the distribution of other SL clubs for 2 years. There WAS no additional "money". The agreement was a self-contained whole and no surplus arose. The Bulls though ended up being short-changed under the deal - ie lost more than the agreement - and the illicit extra deduction arising fell into the other clubs' coffers. And of course the RFL was complicit in that. Under the sanction / condition of admission (call it what you like) there WAS no surplus to BE divided. I have explained the arithmetic many times.

I also do think that if there was to be a fine, then yes, it should have gone for the benefit of the game, and to me it is outrageous and unjustifiable that instead the other clubs took any money at all to benefit themselves, instead of paying the creditors who had been the victims, or failing that, at least for the benefit the game. Had Bradford not gone bust, then the clubs would not have had any bonus money. To me, a reasonable analogy would be a mafia: one of them stole a million last year. This year their son pays it back to the Godfather. He could distribute it to the victims, or give it to charity. But if instead he divides it amongst all the other family heads, then to me all they have done is in effect divided stolen money, and screw everyone else.

Sounds about right.

But why does the new company, which had nothing to do with the old company, have to "pay off" whatever remains of the old company's distribution "debt"? Has anyone advanced a justification for that?

Well said!

I doubt anyone can come up a logical reason, because whichever direction you come from, it is just wrongheaded.

You also have to wonder just what effect this message has on any other 'white knight', maybe thinking of taking on troubled clubs in the future. As I've said previously, there are entities, more organised than the RFL, running around farm yards with their heads chopped off.

Section 2.1 of the RFL bye-laws contained within the Articles of Association :-

[i2.1 The ownership of Super League, or such other competition if any as may in the future replace it, [uincluding the arrangement, management, promotion and administration[/u of the Super League competition (and any event or competition involving Clubs in Super League and rugby league clubs from the southern hemisphere) and all intellectual property rights of any description whatsoever concerning the same [ushall vest absolutely in SLE[/u.[/i

So yes, SLE are a self-governing body operating within a framework provided by the RFL. They have, by consensus, delegated some authorities to the RFL, but they retain the rights to over rule anything the RFL does in relation to SL.

Hence why the RFL needed a majority of SL clubs to vote for the change in league structure....... without the clubs voting the RFL could not have gone to the 12 x 12 to 8 x 8 x 8

The Clubs (small minded cash starved owners/chairmen) wanted the Bulls and the RFL punished and that is what happened........dress it up how you like but in the minutes it was proposed by the clubs, voted on and accepted. The RFL has just relayed the proposal (ultimatum) to OK and he had no choice but accept it if he wanted the Bulls to continue in superleague

Maybe then, last time, the clubs ( 8:5 majority vote) hit Bulls with the £1.3m "membership fee/fine" and specified it was an SLE matter.

Perhaps this time, with the reputational hit that RL as a whole took on this fiasco, either the other clubs didn't back repeating the fine, or the RFL felt they could veto it as was not exclusively an SLE issue anymore.

As you rightly say, the relevant power[size=150 IS [/sizedelegated to the RFL. Which means - the RFL have the power, not SLE.

It could be taken away. But it has not been.

Your argument is a bit like saying the government has no power and does exactly what the majority of the electorate wants, because the electorate can ultimately vote them out. The fact is, while RFL exercises its delegated power, it IS in charge, it does NOT have to, nor does it, seek approval for every step. It does (and reasonably) seek to govern by a consensus, but the tail does not wag the dog. The RFL runs the game and as such has to carry any relevant cans.

The rfl on paper are in ultimate control of the game in the UK, but in practice SLE have the power due to the money their competition brings - so the puppet pulls the puppet masters strings.

A lot of comment on how the rest of SL grabbed half of the Bulls SKY money and how this was unfair in the new company - but they were intent on penalising the Bulls - whoever owned them - for the perceived advantage gained by leaving debts unpaid.

Our problem was that OK seemed not to realise he had acquired what was in essence the same business which was loosing large amounts of money , put an idiot in day to day control, kept no proper records and agreed to loosing half his SKY money - and guess what we were bust again in less than a year - what a surprise - though it seems to have been one for OK.

Maybe. One point I make is that I think it is right and fair that we should be given an explanation. To me it's unreasonable that one single club has been fined over a million pounds, which has heavily contributed to its rapid demise and was unsustainable. and somebody should be held to account for that. If they now think they fooked up, they should admit it. The proper mechanism would be to set out what sanctions the new owners face, publicly and clearly, so the fans of the club know what they are. Just like we knew the sanctions for the previous owners.

It's all very well people saying you can deduce the financial sanction from a second hand throwaway comment attributed to Solly in the T&A but that is not the way to inform us, and as even that comment did not emntion any figure, it is meaningless to me. The remaining penalty could be half a million, or a pound, or anything.

It is unacceptable that not a word has been said directly as to what our actual package of sanctions is. Obviously Green knows, but why the secrecy for the rest of us, and how can it be justified?

The RFL are even silent on competition points. In the case of BB2014, they agreed a deal with RFL, and then at the last minute the RFL said they were deducting 6 pts., and publicised why (because they were not satisfied about the actual cash provision for debtors of the old club)

But now we have brand new owners, who have given a brand new plan, complete with brand new proposals (if any) for old debtors. Clearly on any reasonable view the RFL should at the point of the deal reconsider the competition points position and announce their decision.

People say that the points were a sanction against Moore & Co., for not coming up with actual money to repay old debts. I get that. But what was not known at the time was that Moore & Co. were not, in fact, the owners. Sanctions are APPLIED TO OWNERS. That is crystal from the rules. It is even clearer, (if you need bigger crystals) as it must follow that, if the RFL had been satsified as to the new owners means and willingness to pay old debts, then the points deduction would indisputably have been less.) What we have since learned is that Moore & Co., while we all THOUGHT they were the owners, were in fact in some sort of 28 day period of grace and while they were allowed to run the show as virtual owners, they legally never owned anything. Which is why they had the option of never completing the purchase, instead walking away.

So there was a points deduction. That was levied as a sanction against the owners for inadequate old debt provision. But they were not actually the owners, and walked away. Why should the next owner in line be stuck with that sanction? people say they "can appeal". But they can't. The decision was not against them. Only the person sanctioned can appeal. And so far as I can see, the RFL applied a sanction to someone who did not exist. That is, BB2014 did exist, it was not as it turns out the owner, so no owner existed.

Logically when the provisional acquisition by the prospective new owner was terminated, we had a position where the RFL had said to BB2014 "yes, you can have it, but on these terms ..... including we'll be deducting 6 points". When MM & Co. said fook that, and did not agree, but walked, the RFL should have said OK then we will leave the points decision in abeyance, and decide what it will be if and when we have an actual new owner, based on THEIR plans and documentation.

More or less my thoughts, FA.

I've thought all along that that the deduction was precipitate and should only have been decided when the 'owners' were decided and their plans could be properly scrutinised. If, at the end of the day, its a fair decision, then fine but you can't decide that a couple of months before the owners are known.

Yet another fine example of our headless 'friends' in the RFL running round the farmyard..