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I know where you're coming from, but he's digging a hole big enough for Nigel to fall in.
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Quote: M@islebugs "They'd have gone into administration somewhere between September and December 2011. The RFL wouldn't have seized the ground lease and £500k of supporters money wouldn't have been lost to no effect. I've had it confirmed by a rugby league journalist and someone close to Gary Getherington that the loan plus ground lease 'purchase' incensed the clubs and led them to vote for the new owner to be punished by keeping half the Sky money and sharing it between them.

Had the RFL not lent Peter Hood the money within weeks of giving the club a Grade B license, had they ordered an audit or an extraordinary meeting of the shareholders to raise capital, or indeed any combination thereof, there is probability that the club would still own the lease, the new owner wouldn't have been punished to the tune of £1.3 million and the club wouldn't be where it is in the first relegation season for years.

It was a bizarre decision, which only came out when the great 'Odsal vulture circling lie' was being told to cover what was essentially asset seizure.

The RFL are not the root cause of this fiasco but they have made it considerably and probably irreparably worse. They certainly lied about the Odsal purchase and likely lied again in respect of their role in the second administration.'"



This needs repeating.
Lets be clear. The Bulls problems are the fault of the Bulls,no-one else, it was gross mis-management from the peak of 2003/2004 (IMHO - this should have been the point in time we restructured for the long term, but hindsight is often 20:20) However, the RFL and others actions, whilst maybe trying to help in the best way, ultimately made things much worse. With hindsight we clearly should have been allowed/forced to go bust and reform before the secret loan and Odsal theft. It was help, but misguided help for the long term, that might sound ungrateful (like I give a.... before anyone bothers to call me on it) but the evidence of how misguided the help ultimately was is being played out week by week right now and will result in us being relegated.


Cheers to Adey, FA, daveyz999 for the excellent contributions, and cheers also to Mr Dweeb for filling up an otherwise dull hour. I do still wonder what would be happening now if Mrs Koucash or the secret texas billionaire had got involved....At least I'm looking forward to Saturday at the Eithad, should be lovely weather too! Excellent.
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Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "Dweeb is now reduced to doing his best Violet Elizabeth Bott impersonation of going off in a huge sulk, stamping his little feet because the nasty men are asking him hard questions.

Dweeb has posted NOTHING but this sort of rant for several pages now, and it is clear he is a busted flush, so Dweeb I suggest back in yer box unless and until you calm down enough to at least try to frame a response to something like 30-odd specific and sensible direct questions posed to you.

Tip 1


As already stated more than once, the RFL is a creditor of OK. He personally guaranteed the repayment up administration of OK Bulls within 2 years. The £900k figure was lodged with the administrator because the money went into OK Bulls coffers.
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Quote: Northernrelic "The dangers of trying to be a good Samaritan - if you see an animal dying of self inflicted wounds just put it down - it will save a lot of trouble down the line.'"


Indeed, that may well be the policy of the RFL in future. But then the fans of the next club will ask why they aren't being treated the same as Bradford Bulls.......
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Quote: daveyz999 "There is enough in the press over the pas 2 years stating the clubs shared the Bulls share of the central funding.

If this was not the case, the RFL would have set the records straight, as the decision to let the clubs decide what happened to the cash makes them look weak and unbiased.

Do you have any proof which backs up your argument that the Bulls share of the central funding did not go to the SL clubs? Thought not!'"


Your proof that it did?
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Quote: LeagueDweeb "Indeed, that may well be the policy of the RFL in future. But then the fans of the next club will ask why they aren't being treated the same as Bradford Bulls.......'"


Why, will the RFL not advise the employees of other clubs to place the club into administration to rid them of their employers? This is all based on hearsay, of course! icon_mrgreen.gif
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Quote: colly226 "I know where you're coming from, but he's digging a hole big enough for Nigel to fall in.'"


If I remember correctly it's called Odsal - and is there already!
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Quote: LeagueDweeb "As already stated more than once, the RFL is a creditor of OK. He personally guaranteed the repayment up administration of OK Bulls within 2 years. The £900k figure was lodged with the administrator because the money went into OK Bulls coffers.'"


If we leave the £900,000 figure you keep referring to, lets look at the £1.3 million the bulls are still paying back the RFL (apparently). Was this lodged officially on the creditors report when the original administration took place? I didn't think it did....... Otherwise it would have (correctly) been written off as part of the administration.

Your figures still don't add up - the Bulls never received payments adding to £1.3 (excluding the sale of the Lease). The only evidence you attempted to put forward was that Gargoyle somehow lied on his administrator report (with the aid of his buddy Caisley) which is a pretty serious allegation to make!
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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif
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Quote: LeagueDweeb "As already stated more than once, the RFL is a creditor of OK. He personally guaranteed the repayment up administration of OK Bulls within 2 years. The £900k figure was lodged with the administrator because the money went into OK Bulls coffers.'"


YET AGAIN you dodge the simple question.

YOU SAID the RFL is not a creditor of OKB.

I asked why then have they claimed £900K in the administration, albeit at the eleventh hour?

Whatever personal claims they may choose to try to pursue against anyone else is a separate matter entirely. Either they are owed £900K as they have claimed by OKB, or they are not. If not, then I repeat, have they lodged a fraudulent claim, then?
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Quote: Duckman "This needs repeating.
Lets be clear. The Bulls problems are the fault of the Bulls,no-one else, it was gross mis-management from the peak of 2003/2004 (IMHO - this should have been the point in time we restructured for the long term, but hindsight is often 20

Ergo those of us who stumped up to the £500k appeal contributed to the demise as well.
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Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif
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Quote: LeagueDweeb "Your proof that it did?'"

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I'm incredibly ill informed about the rationale, history, explanations, accusations and possible scenarios encompassing our ownership and problems. I can't be bothered reading FAs, Adeys or the other worthy but gigantic posts which I'm sure I'd find helpful (you may mis-read all that as sarcasm but it's a straight-bat summary of me).

After admitting that as my baseline, what I could do is make either inane posts about cutting cloth or dribble out a few fallacies. But I feel that would be a bit silly so I don't say anything.

If you catch my drift.
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Quote: Adeybull "You've lost the plot, Dweeb.

The administration receipts and payments account is a matter of public record. I am looking at it now. The figures are as I stated. Are you accusing P&A of presenting an incorrect or even fraudulent report? I have accused them of all manner of things, but deliberate falsification of a legal document would never be one of them.

Quote: Adeybull "The RFL was funding the Bulls prior to BBH enteing administration. I have stated more than once a period of 6 months in total when the RFL put money in. Your figure only shows the amount paid to P&A during admin. Guilfoyle was in situ well before that undertaking a review in a personal capacity.'"


All you have done is seek to justify why the RFL confiscated c.£1.3m off future, and blameless, owners, without providing ANYTHING to support the reason for that amount.

Quote: Adeybull "Ask Cailsey, Hood etc who funded the Bulls when the financial mess came to light. Here's a clue, it wasn't them.'"


Yet it was YOU who stated, right at the start [i"It wasn't a fine as there is nothing in the operational rules regarding financial punishment. It was the RFL recouping the huge amount of funds it had to pay the administrator to prevent liquidation".[/i I think I have demonstrated that it most definitely cannot have been that. Which makes you either mistaken, seriously disingenuous or a liar.

Quote: Adeybull "It wasn't a fine. Not giving the same club money twice over isn't a fine'"


You seem to be acknowledging, absent any rebuttal, that the confiscation WAS connected with the buying of the lease. Yet are silent on the consequence that I pointed out.

Quote: Adeybull "You came up with that suggestion. Why do I need to rebut it? I've stated that the RFL funded the club over a period of 6 months before OK Bulls took over. That's not acknowledging it's anything to do with the lease.'"


You are also resorting increasingly to the last refuge of those who are losing the argument, and putting up increasing numbers of straw men. Kindly cease attributing to me - and others - statements we have not made, and opinions we have not expressed. It is dishonest, and frankly undermines any remaining shreds of argument you may have.

Quote: Adeybull "Straw men such as? I have attributed nothing to you that you have rebutted.'"


You state that had the RFL not made loans to BBH in 2012 then bought the lease, then there would have been no club.

No.

BBH would have gone into administration.

Quote: Adeybull "And very shortly afterwards, liquidation'"


HOW THE HELL do you know that no-one would have come in for the club, to acquire the assets and carry on? Given that that is precisely what has happened TWICE since then, with the club in a FAR wporse position AND with the masive financial confiscation hanging over the head of any new owner, it BEGGARS BELIEF that no-one would have come in!!! Indeed, the common asumption was that no less than Mr Caisley would have done precisely that and maybe indeed was intending to do precisely that.

Quote: Adeybull "Had the RFL not stepped in to a) loan £700k, then b) buy the lease, BBH would have been liquidated vey quickly. Do you recall Hood claiming the lease was sold to prevent predatory moves on the asset? The RFL loaning the £700k kept the club afloat and buying the lease meant the assets WOULD NOT be sold to anyone not seeking to continue rugby league at Odsal. Had these 2 steps not been taken, any creditor issuing a winding up order would have forced disposal of the assets in order to ensure administrator fees were kept to a minimum and some dispersal was made to creditors.'"


You allege the rent was not paid post-purchase - another new allegation. Fine. So where the hell is the RFL as a creditor in the list of creditors at date of administration that I am looking at? Surely the rent will have been invoiced? Like any normal commercial business would do? And anyway, at £78k p.a. we are hardly talking huge amounts. And

Quote: Adeybull "I didn't allege that at all.'"


For the avoidance of doubt, I have not, ever, anywhere, blamed the problems of the club on the RFL.

I have statedHow did it make it far far worse? The only other scenario was immediate liquidation and a firesale of assets without the RFL having any control whatsoever'"


2 - that the subsequent confiscation of c. £1.3m from prospective future purchasers - a confiscation that you have failed to justify in any meaningful way - was an absurd decision. It made life extremely hard indeed for blameless new owners, punishing THEM for the sins of unconnected predecessors.

Quote: Adeybull "So you are blaming the RFL. You are saying there are no grounds for the RFL withholding central funding, and that RFL involvement in preventing Bradford Bulls from disappearing made things far far worse. How is having a club worse than not having one? This merely reinforces your victim status. You also seem to be forgetting that OK was FULLY aware of the level of central funding available. It is he who is at fault for taking on a business he clearly was not able or willing to fund to the required level. As I have also already stated, what of, other than OK, not a single director of OK Bulls having any financial input to the business?'"


EDIT[i
FWIW, I am expecting that, when history comes to be written, the actions of the RFL over a protracted period (including approving OK as an appropriate new owner) will be seen to have turned an ongoing crisis (a crisis, let's be clear, caused entirely by incompetant and irresponsible club managements and ownerships not the RFL) into a total unmitigated disaster.[/i

Quote: Adeybull "So it's the RFL's fault for loaning BBH money to stay in business, then buying the lease to protect the stadium, then funding the business for 6 months to keep it afloat until a takeover could be worked out? It's then the RFL's fault for allowing OK to take over. '"



I really hope that you are just an apologist for the senior officials at the RFL, and not actually one of them as has been alleged. Because, if you are inded one of the latter, then it sadly demonstrates just what sort of people are running the show.

Quote: Adeybull "JAs opposed to those you seem to be less responsible, i.e the directors and owners of BBH & OK Bulls. Apologists for whom you appear to be.'"




'"
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Quote: daveyz999 "If we leave the £900,000 figure you keep referring to, lets look at the £1.3 million the bulls are still paying back the RFL (apparently). Was this lodged officially on the creditors report when the original administration took place? I didn't think it did....... Otherwise it would have (correctly) been written off as part of the administration.

Your figures still don't add up - the Bulls never received payments adding to £1.3 (excluding the sale of the Lease). The only evidence you attempted to put forward was that Gargoyle somehow lied on his administrator report (with the aid of his buddy Caisley) which is a pretty serious allegation to make!'"


Where do you get your £1.3m figure from? The money was paid to OK Bulls, hence it appears in the financial statements as revenue for the company. It has to be lodged are revenue for the RFL to be ale to pursue repayment from the guarantor. The RFL is a creditor of OK.

The central funding given to OK Bulls wasn't guaranteed by the company, nor is it owed by the company.
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