With so many leaving at the end of the year I think you've hit the nail on the head Wigsy. Watching the recent videos about our 2005 season you see an unbelievable contrast in every way. Those players wanted to go out on a high note. Many of the current group seem to be less motivated. Dunning said the players "gave everything" but and they may have done but looking at some they could certainly give a lot more if they were fitter.

Some players do definitely care but yesterday it wasn't channelled properly. For example when we were chasing the game in the 2nd half we got a penalty on our own 30m line. Flanagan elected to take a tap rather than put the ball into touch. Why? We would've made much more ground if we'd taken the kick. In the first half Lawford gained 40m on a penalty with a great kick. Flanagan obviously wanted to speed up the tempo but he let his enthusiasm cloud his judgement.

In the post match interview there was some discussion about our disallowed tries from Mick. Maybe one was harsh but Dunning at least correctly said it wasn't the reason for the defeat. He did say the lack of cohesion was down to having Hallas, Lawford and Kear as playmakers. He also said the large field at York gives players margin for error whereas that's not the case at Odsal. He said we find it difficult at Odsal. I think that's the first time that's been acknowledged officially. Not that it seems to hinder the opposition as much. We apparently have a different gameplan for home games that needs us to be "absolutely meticulous" which also looks to be beyond the current group.

Dunning said Whitehaven are a "good team" but I'd say that their league position says otherwise.

The club have a herculean task to sell season tickets for next year. We need a huge clearout of players and a change in culture.

This has the ring of truth to it. I've been to a few home games this year, but its a chore, not the highlight of the week like it used to be (even for plenty of times after Super League) and I prefer away games to home games now. Odsal was never great, but it had its unique charm in the past, now the field size is an absolute disgrace (that under sizing surely cannot be allowed long term??), the stands and hoardings are covered in dirt, its just an unpleasant place to spend the afternoon now, embarrassing.

I'm not local, so the travel, costs and time just dont stack up any more at the moment. Restore a proper sized pitch and give me a sense of hope for the future with the team and investment from owners and I'll be back, but for now I'll stick to attending the odd away game closer to me and following the Odsal demise from a distance.

We need some good signings to stimulate season ticket take up. Not sure if the budget will be enough for this to happen but with talk of two tens for the following year it could be s**t or bust.

The "there was effort" line will start to wear thin very quickly. Trying should he a minimum. Our effort level seems to be accepted to take the ball in or make a tackle and that's it. I'm also fed up of hearing the pitch as an excuse. Considering our current HB situation it should actually be an advantage to us.

Agreed we desperately need some good recruitment. Players that will make something happen whether it's a big run, an offload or whatever. We've got too many players going through the motions. I really hope we get Sammut, yes we can get rocks or diamonds but at least we'll always have a chance with him. You just knew we weren't going to come back yesterday, even though it was only two scores against a team two from bottom, which tells you everything.

I'm trying hard to give Mark Dunning the benefit of being able to recruit his own side under the Bulls budget. But some of the comments he comes out with, worry me.

Blaming the pitch, that we play on regularly and presumably can train on occasionally.. it surely should be an advantage rather than an excuse for another poor showing? But if the coaching staff cannot get our players to play a decent game of rugby on it, I see little point wasting anymore money attending at Odsal. As Duckman says, it's a depressing experience and I'm all out of blind loyalty.

People like us will only take so much before deciding it's not worth it and with cost of living going up it'll be nigh impossible to justify £20 to stand at a crumbling Odsal in all weathers watching the most sterile RL possible. The club can't expect people to attend out of obligation. It's a two way relationship.

I too am trying to give Dunning the benefit of the doubt and I realise he's not going to publicly criticise his players but I would like to see a bit more from him about what he's going to do to turn things around and give us a reason to want to come and support the team in the future. At the moment it's all very dour and littered with low expectations.

I remember a game JK talked about maybe Swinton? He said they have a lot of penalties away when they were under pressure, in order to get their defence set. So jk directed Keyes to kick all penalties. It was once Swinton were 10-0 down they began to realise they were in trouble. If we’d done that yesterday we could have added 10points to our score, assuming Kear could kick them.

Hookem played ok. But the Doyle/Flanagan axis would have been better, and again, I think we would have won. But agreed, all very dispiriting.

I assume Kear didn't fancy his chances? He missed one that a regular kicker would normally get. I take your point but I guess they thought Whitehaven would crack eventually. Unfortunately we didn't ask the right questions in their defence and Dunning has to take some portion of blame for that.

So. What kind of reset do we need? We lost about 2k supporters when we were relegated from SL. And we’ve lost about 300 every year since then.
Short term, we’re stuck with Odsal. I think. How long a lease did we sign at the beginning of last year? With the numbers we’re down to now, we could make BPA work I think.
It’s all about recruitment and the academy. I would say a mix of our 6 best academy players and maybe 8 others, to cover for the 16 that are leaving?

Lawford will be a great player with time, from what I hear George JNR will be..
We need a 100% rake out top to bottom, an owner with funds and acumen would be a start, we can't scrimp and save with a volunteers back to Super League or even the top 6 of the championship.

The Playing staff needs overhauling, and I hate to say it as I like Dunning he needs to be replaced, well out of his depth is an understatement.
We need a professional coach to build a culture like Brian Smith did in 96, they never even looked to replace JK just made out like they were.

Unless someone comes in to buy Nigel out or invests whats needed to set a pro RL club back up we are going to continue to decline.
A mate of mine who works up there full time said "We are an amateur club in everything but name" and it shows.

The love in with George Flannagan needs to end too, I could see him been made assistant when in reality he shouldn't be anywhere near a professional organisation.

With a turn up on the playing field, a potential stadium project and positivity we will see fans come back.
The Odsal Chicken and the egg situation, without investment we will not get success, without success we will not see fans back so less gate revenue.

#nigeout not because I have anything against the guy, he just isn't our man.

We need a new owner. Without one the slide will continue. Look at his track record so far:

1. Pitch at Odsal the smallest ever and one that the head coach acknowledges is a problem with resultant negative impacts on results, playing style, income and perception.

2. Presiding over a culture at the club where visibly obese players are picked regularly for the 1st team to the mockery of all and sundry on TV and social media.

3. Supporters needing to bring their own cleaning equipment into the stadium to clean seats or face ruined clothing.

4. Two month long worldwide search for a head coach culminating in appointing the bloke who was already here.

If we carry on like this there's no doubt we'll be struggling to avoid relegation next year. We'll be battling to stay above Newcastle and whoever comes up behind Keighley.

If we move to BPA it would only confirm how low we've got and impact further on player recruitment at all levels.

Part of me just wants the pain over with.

We'd have put the family pet to sleep a long time ago....

I know what you mean but it would be possible to turn it all around with the right owner. Other clubs have come out of the doldrums and got new grounds. Look at Huddersfield. We're just like they were when they were called the Barracudas and playing in a crumbling Fartown.

Who here had a source either at Caddick construction or construction in Leeds/Bradford in general?