FORUMS > Bradford Bulls > Winding up order ? |
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| The RFL put Bradford in special measures and suspended registration of players based on this.
Can't see how it was an error. Overdue tax bills don't get filed & forgotten about.
Has the loan from Barclays been cleared? The £200k loan from Bradford Council?
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6679_1399761959.png [quote="dally messenger":1gysl9ow]was watching an nfl doco. on one of their teams and they used the term bomb to describe those long high passes from quaterback to running back and i think gibson took that idea, realized you cant throw the ball forward in RL and adapted it to a "bomb" kick we have[/quote:1gysl9ow]
[quote="eels fan":1gysl9ow]You poor poor obsessed fat ex vichyballin potato thieving stoaway.[/quote:1gysl9ow]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6679.png |
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| Quote: roofaldo2 "Really? Could have fooled me with your insistence that your "predictions", all of which you explained by showing you were ignoring most of the Bulls income, where fact that Bradford were going out of business.'"
whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
I hope Bradford Bull pull through, but at the moment, the first 12 months has not gone to plan and to deny this is insane!
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| Quote: BiffasBoys "The RFL put Bradford in special measures and suspended registration of players based on this.
Can't see how it was an error. Overdue tax bills don't get filed & forgotten about.
Has the loan from Barclays been cleared? The £200k loan from Bradford Council?'"
Over, done with, move on!
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| Quote: gutterfax "whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
Omar Khan bought the assets at Odsal, valued at £3m by P&A Partnership. for £225k. There is no record of any further investment from him until the recent story of him cashing some assets to fund unpaid wages. There's no actual evidence of how much he put in in the public domain.
The £200k loan from Bradford Council isn't secured on club assets or income. The Barclays bank loan is.
£1m+ in season tickets for 2013. A main sponsor in Provident worth a reputed £300k a year, two big loans, merchandising and other sponsorship income, plus two big events held at Odsal & yet wages & tax bills left unpaid.
The club has been spending what it could not afford, this right off the back of the old company being liquidated.
With the play offs missed again season ticket sales will be unlikely to hit 6,500 for 2014, thus meaning a further drop in revenue.
Hopefully this alleged injection of funds from Omar Khan will secure the Bulls in the short term, but I fear it's only a matter of time before financial trouble rears it's head.
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| Quote: gutterfax "whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
I think this feeling of 'something not being right' that you have is probably down to how our reduced central funding has not been reflected in the general operations of the club. The current predicament at Wakefield is a perfect example, where the new bloke in charge has come in and seen that the club's wage bill is way too high in comparison to their incomings. Remember this is with full share of sky money (plus some of ours). As a result, he is now gradually reducing the wage bill so that Wakefield can survive while not living beyond their means.
When we were docked our £600k, the directors had a choice to make. We either lower the wage bill to match incomings, or they rely on funding from elsewhere - be it sponsorship or Omar himself.
Their first season in charge was a new experience for them in all facets - they had absolutely no experience in running a rugby league club.
With this is mind, I would be amazed if their budgets were anywhere close to being accurate. We know for a fact that their income from ST sales was wrong as they were hoping for 10k to be sold. I can only presume our squad was established under the assumption that these levels of ST sales would be reached. Obviously that didn't happen and despite the great efforts made by Omar and co to secure some lucrative sponsorship deals, we inevitably had to fall back on investment from Omar - I suspect he has had to provide far more capital than he had expected when he bought the club.
So now we enter our second season with OK and his team in charge. Budgets will have been drawn up and I can only hope that they are more realistic this time. OK will have a much better idea of how much income the club will have coming in this time, from both STs and other sources. If the budgets Are more sensible, and yet we are still making new signings for 2014, then I am willing to put my faith in Omar and his team that they have got their sh*t together for next season and they are confident that they can operate successfully.
The alternative scenario is that they still have massively flawed budgets and have taken the risk to not reduce our wage bill by any significant amount, hoping that Bulls fans will but STs in their droves and everything will by hunky dorey. I am willing to gove Omar a bit more credit than to do something like that. At the end of the day he has made his millions by being a businessman, not by taking risks.
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| Quote: Nothus "I think this feeling of 'something not being right' that you have is probably down to how our reduced central funding has not been reflected in the general operations of the club. The current predicament at Wakefield is a perfect example, where the new bloke in charge has come in and seen that the club's wage bill is way too high in comparison to their incomings. Remember this is with full share of sky money (plus some of ours). As a result, he is now gradually reducing the wage bill so that Wakefield can survive while not living beyond their means.
When we were docked our £600k, the directors had a choice to make. We either lower the wage bill to match incomings, or they rely on funding from elsewhere - be it sponsorship or Omar himself.
Their first season in charge was a new experience for them in all facets - they had absolutely no experience in running a rugby league club.
With this is mind, I would be amazed if their budgets were anywhere close to being accurate. We know for a fact that their income from ST sales was wrong as they were hoping for 10k to be sold. I can only presume our squad was established under the assumption that these levels of ST sales would be reached. Obviously that didn't happen and despite the great efforts made by Omar and co to secure some lucrative sponsorship deals, we inevitably had to fall back on investment from Omar - I suspect he has had to provide far more capital than he had expected when he bought the club.
So now we enter our second season with OK and his team in charge. Budgets will have been drawn up and I can only hope that they are more realistic this time. OK will have a much better idea of how much income the club will have coming in this time, from both STs and other sources. If the budgets Are more sensible, and yet we are still making new signings for 2014, then I am willing to put my faith in Omar and his team that they have got their sh*t together for next season and they are confident that they can operate successfully.
The alternative scenario is that they still have massively flawed budgets and have taken the risk to not reduce our wage bill by any significant amount, hoping that Bulls fans will but STs in their droves and everything will by hunky dorey. I am willing to gove Omar a bit more credit than to do something like that. At the end of the day he has made his millions by being a businessman, not by taking risks.'"
Good post. I believe that budgets would have being adjusted, but they will be aiming for top 8, or a cup run for abit of extra revenue. That's probably true for 5+ teams in the comp and shouldn't be a negative, it should be a reason to back the season ticket drive.
As for money for the signings, when you set it out you can see where the money has come from. (Clearly making some assumptions, correct me if I'm way off!)
Diskin - Must have resigned on a much lower wage
Platt - On a good contract from a time gone by
Langley - One of the top earners at the club
Whitehead - Read £2,000 a week before, which must be up there.
Lulia - Again must be a top earner
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973_1515165968.gif Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif |
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| Quote: BiffasBoys ".... valued at £3m '"
Who's denying the first 12 months haven't gone to plan? But as that plan was conceived by people who've never run a sporting club before, it's only natural that there'd be some teething troubles and I've never said what the remaining monies have been used for, if anything. This is another case of you making something up and calling it fact.
As for the missed salary payment, the club knew it was coming and tried to get the investment into the club to prevent it, unfortunately due to a banking error, this was delayed.
How can your basic formula be "spot on" if you ignore or discount large numbers of other incomes and only use a select few in order to justify your argument? That's like saying 2+2 = 1,003,254
As for the oversight regarding the tax bill, the club have already addressed that AND it was properly addressed at the time. If not then HMRC would have taken out a notice in the London Gazette, which is what they would legally be required to do in the course of pursuing a winding up order. This never happened, as the club paid the outstanding amount in full and within the time given to them by HMRC.
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6679_1399761959.png [quote="dally messenger":1gysl9ow]was watching an nfl doco. on one of their teams and they used the term bomb to describe those long high passes from quaterback to running back and i think gibson took that idea, realized you cant throw the ball forward in RL and adapted it to a "bomb" kick we have[/quote:1gysl9ow]
[quote="eels fan":1gysl9ow]You poor poor obsessed fat ex vichyballin potato thieving stoaway.[/quote:1gysl9ow]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6679.png |
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| Quote: roofaldo2 "Who's denying the first 12 months haven't gone to plan? But as that plan was conceived by people who've never run a sporting club before, it's only natural that there'd be some teething troubles and I've never said what the remaining monies have been used for, if anything. This is another case of you making something up and calling it fact.'"
Teething troubles? BTW...forgetting to pay the bill is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard but you will patently lap it up. The only excuse you've yet to use is that the Dog ate your homework.......
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| Quote: gutterfax "Teething troubles?
Right, so you can't refute my argument so you're resorting to being childish?
What would you call it then? First year running a sporting club. 2 problems regarding cash, both of which have been resolved.
So the Bulls haven't had enough money this year? So who do they currently owe money to?
It's not the players, they're paid.
It's not the HMRC, they're paid.
Who is oh mystic maker up of figures?
Come on, tell us all. Or perhaps you'd like to go make up a quote and attribute that to me instead?
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| In the original report of Omar's 900k investment it was clearly stated this was intended to cover ongoing costs for this year and next so the 1.74M (840+900) is intended to be over 2 years not 1. Although not ideal that he has to put that amount of money in, when Omar took the club over he talked about 2-3 years to get it running at a self sustaining level and we're 1 year into that. If he needs to do it again any time next year then there is something very wrong.
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark "
The purchase price was based upon the valuation placed on all assets & equipment by P&A.
This was £3m & agreed by Omar Khan.
He paid £225k for the assets. £150k on setting up & transferring them from Bradford Bulls Holdings to OK Bulls Ltd, with a further £75k on a charge which I believe has now been settled.
So no bills were left unpaid when they fell due?
Sutcliffe didn't set a totally unrealistic target of 10k season tickets & express huge disappointment on more than one occasion at hitting 6500?
The fact that the club has two loans shows how badly wrong the directors got it.
Omar Khan is trying to make himself out to be some sort of hero, simply because he has put an unspecified amount of money into a business, of which he is sole shareholder, to cover financial shortfalls brought about due to truly incompetent financial forecasting.
A board of 14? Never heard of such a number for a business of that size, plus assistant & deputy directors, whatever they are.
For the foreseeable, the Bulls will be one of the also rans in Super League, with Bradford City taking the lions share of spectators, sponsorship & media coverage in the city.
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| Quote: BiffasBoys "For the foreseeable, the Bulls will be one of the also rans in Super League, with Bradford City taking the lions share of spectators, sponsorship & media coverage in the city.'"
Which goes to show these things are cyclical, good for City to finally to get their act together and eventually drag themselves up a division instead of the perpetual free fall of the last decade. As for Super League, well that's pretty much down to the previous regime getting us into a huge mess at a time when the world fell in on it's arrse, but we're still at the top table and still have a team to watch.
I'm sure precious City remember the bad times too. Still, I'm also sure there are plenty rubbing their hands with faux concern.
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6679_1399761959.png [quote="dally messenger":1gysl9ow]was watching an nfl doco. on one of their teams and they used the term bomb to describe those long high passes from quaterback to running back and i think gibson took that idea, realized you cant throw the ball forward in RL and adapted it to a "bomb" kick we have[/quote:1gysl9ow]
[quote="eels fan":1gysl9ow]You poor poor obsessed fat ex vichyballin potato thieving stoaway.[/quote:1gysl9ow]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6679.png |
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| Quote: roofaldo2 "Right, so you can't refute my argument so you're resorting to being childish?
What would you call it then? First year running a sporting club. 2 problems regarding cash, both of which have been resolved.
So the Bulls haven't had enough money this year? So who do they currently owe money to?
It's not the players, they're paid.
It's not the HMRC, they're paid.
Who is oh mystic maker up of figures?
Come on, tell us all. Or perhaps you'd like to go make up a quote and attribute that to me instead?'"
hey...OK has invested the better part of 2 million in 11 months....let's see how he gets on next year and if he has another 2 mill handy
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973_1515165968.gif Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_973.gif |
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| Quote: BiffasBoys "The purchase price was based upon the valuation placed on all assets & equipment by P&A.
This was £3m & agreed by Omar Khan. '"
Anything which really does have a value of £3m, can be sold for something in that order. I could say my dog is valued at £3m, and to me it probably is, but as nobody would pay that, it is almost as meaningless. Nobody, but nobody, being remotely interested in buying my dog at anything approaching my valuation is all I need to know. I can boldly insist its value is £3m, but in any sense that actually matters, it's not.
Quote: BiffasBoys "So no bills were left unpaid when they fell due? '"
You understood the point very well. Your new question doesn't make any sense. The relevant question is whether the bills were paid, and they were, albeit late.
Quote: BiffasBoys "Sutcliffe didn't set a totally unrealistic target of 10k season tickets & express huge disappointment on more than one occasion at hitting 6500? '"
The target was ambitious. "Totally unrealistic" is just your jaundiced view. We've had that number in the recent past and I'd assume that if we set an ambitious target of 10K then secretly we'd have been aiming for maybe 8K plus. Given the way in which the Bulls fans stuck together during the crisis and the goodwill that was evident at that time, I too am disappointed that this only materialised in 6.5k. I didn't expect 10k, but 6.5k was a bit poor to be honest. And why wouldn't GS be disappointed? And what is the relevance if he expressed his disappointment "on more than one occasion"?
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