FORUMS > Bradford Bulls > Ownership and twists |
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| Quote: daveyz999 "Think so - I can see the bulls online message, which states no points deduction, but i never had chance to read the article as the link is now broken. Cheers for this'"
Think the club jumped the gun a bit with this one..... obviously its all a done deal, but we can't let everyone else know that just yet!
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| Quote: Bullpower2012 "Think the club jumped the gun a bit with this one..... obviously its all a done deal, but we can't let everyone else know that just yet!'"
Press management at the club is 1st class!
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| Everyone - shush!
Don't tell anyone that this has been all agreed with RFL for some time.
When we are told there is no points reduction everyone act surprised and we should get away with it.
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| It's like an episode of The Thick of It.
We need to get Malcolm Tucker up to Odsal to sort out the media strategy and castrate whoever jumped the gun with the last statement.
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| Quote: Adeybull, returning on 27/11/13 and commenting on the report of Bradford Bulls (2014) Ltd being incorporated "
I've stayed away from places like this since early April. Making an exception, given the potential for real damage from uninformed or malicious comment. Then, as as you were.
My take on what I have read. No inside info, nothing other than what I have read. In particular, though, the wording of the OP's post - which may or may not be a bit mischievous but certainly IMO encourages jumping to conclusions - does not necessarily say what some of you guys look to have assumed it means.
1 - Yes, a new company Bradford Bulls (2014) ltd looks to have been incorporated. Forget all the waknerage from commercial sites, just go look at Companies House
OK. I was a bit out on some of the points - like at the time I assumed that the new Debenture was in favour of OK, not the "security company". Had I paid my £1 and found that out beforehand, the scenario I outlined would have been much closer. But I think the bones of the situation - quarantining the club from the toxic debt - is there? "Frank Whitcombe" certainly saw it similar.
If the only creditor not paid proves to be OK, well that's tough on OK but fine by me. Had he put his money in in the form of shares (as most folk assumed he had, and he did nothing to disabuse anyone of that misconception) then he'd have been lucky to have received a cent back anyway. So its the same result - "owner writes investment off after huge losses shocker" - and no reason for anyone other than OK to get on their high horse about it.
If there are other toxic creditors - and we know of at least one, and I suspect there will be other strange ones that crawled out of the woodwork after Whitcu*t went - and THEY don;t get paid in full, well given the circumstances I kikewise can't see why there should be any complaints from anyone.
If the normal trade creditors, and of course HMRC, were not to be engaged with and settlement with them made by the new company, then I would (I hope it never becomes "Will"icon_wink.gif have a serious problem. As I think would many others and certainly the RFL. Points deduction would seem inevitable in such circumstances. It is sounding like maybe that issue is indeed being addressed, but we need to await updates I guess.
What seems a certainty is that many folk, who understandably do not have a knowledge of how these things work, will inevitably jump to the expected conclusions.
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| Quote: Adeybull "...
If the normal trade creditors, and of course HMRC, were not to be engaged with and settlement with them made by the new company, then I would (I hope it never becomes "Will"icon_wink.gif have a serious problem. As I think would many others and certainly the RFL. Points deduction would seem inevitable in such circumstances. It is sounding like maybe that issue is indeed being addressed, but we need to await updates I guess.'"
Is there any legal mechanism for Bradford Bulls (2014) Ltd to pay liabilities due to HMRC but owed by Ok Bulls?
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| Quote: childofthenorthern "Is there any legal mechanism for Bradford Bulls (2014) Ltd to pay liabilities due to HMRC but owed by Ok Bulls?'"
Almost certainly not.
But voluntary assumption of debts of an acquired business, to maintain supplier etc goodwill, is not uncommon.
A good largish recent example was Brintons Carpets. Fell over owing a shedload to suppliers, and a shedload to senior loan finance providers. Newco (bought by US private equity group Carlyle IIRC, in a prepack) stated they would settle all the trade and other creditors, but not the loans. That way, to everyone except the loan providers nothing much changed, nobody died, creditors were paid, employees were TUPEd across and the administrator got a nice fee for not doing a lot.
I am hoping this is very similar. Its clearly a prepack, and the statement the club has put out - whilst not as unequivocal as the one re Brintons - gives me hope that the intent is to settle with all the normal creditors. And, as with Brintons, just leave the loan unpaid.
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| Seems clear that the saga of who owned or didn't own the club had become intractable, and you can understand it being impossible to plan and run a business when no actual transfer of the business/shares/whatever has been finalised nor ever seemed likely to be.
Something had to give and would have given eventually, and not in a good way, so the nuclear option of a pre-pack at least instantly wraps up all old loose ends, and is a clean-break new start for the new owners, who are exactly that.
It doesn't alter the position of the individuals who entered into various agreements, eg it wouldn't have any bearing on any action by OK against MM / RW for the money he says they agreed to pay. It does though completely divorce the club from any involvement whatsoever in that.
I presume that no ordinary creditors of the old OK Bulls will be shafted. At least I hope that's the intention. Wonder what will happen about the loan somebody took out from the security company?
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| Quote: Adeybull "Almost certainly not.
But voluntary assumption of debts of an acquired business, to maintain supplier etc goodwill, is not uncommon.
A good largish recent example was Brintons Carpets. Fell over owing a shedload to suppliers, and a shedload to senior loan finance providers. Newco (bought by US private equity group Carlyle IIRC, in a prepack) stated they would settle all the trade and other creditors, but not the loans. That way, to everyone except the loan providers nothing much changed, nobody died, creditors were paid, employees were TUPEd across and the administrator got a nice fee for not doing a lot.
I am hoping this is very similar. Its clearly a prepack, and the statement the club has put out - whilst not as unequivocal as the one re Brintons - gives me hope that the intent is to settle with all the normal creditors. And, as with Brintons, just leave the loan unpaid.'"
If that were the case then the assumption of debts would have been done at the time of the transfer. If HMRC accept that, then logic suggests they'll withdraw their application for a winding up order against Ok Bulls. If that happens it's probably safe to assume that's the case.
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| Can the throng of Asian businessmen willing to invest in rugby league please form an orderly queue.
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| Quote: Ferocious Aardvark " Wonder what will happen about the loan somebody took out from the security company?'"
The charge was a very comprehensive one against all assets of OK Bulls
If those assets have been sold/transferred to BB2104 then I must assume it is with agreement of the charge holder.
Perhaps it has been satisfied (paid) or a replacement one taken out by BB2014.
Companies house records will soon tell us.
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| Quote: childofthenorthern "If that were the case then the assumption of debts would have been done at the time of the transfer. If HMRC accept that, then logic suggests they'll withdraw their application for a winding up order against Ok Bulls. If that happens it's probably safe to assume that's the case.'"
Its irrelevant now whether HMRC withdraw their application, since the appointment of administrators stays all legal debt recovery actions.
I assume that HMRC have not been paid because the directors were unable to make such payments while the ownership situation was unresolved. I'll not bore folk with the legals about fraudulent preferences etc unless someone needs help sleeping.
The administrator sells the assets - in this case clearly a prepack deal was in place ready to go when the button was pressed. The liabilities always stay with the old company. The administrator then uses the proceeds of sale of the assets to pay his own costs, then the creditors in ranking order.
(as an aside, the security company ranks ahead of other creditors because of its debenture, so will get paid first. Assuming that the assets were transferred for value, then there should be funds to do just that).
I would guess that the price Newco paid for the assets reflected a comitment to settle with the normal creditors - although that is pure speculation. The administrator has to be happy he got the best deal he could for the assets, but also has to balance that with his other responsibilities. Remember, the whole point of bringing in Administration as the default process for corporate insolvency (instead of receivership or liquidation) was to increase the number of failed businesses that could be saved as going concerns. This deal has cerrtainly achieved that objective 100%.
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| If I had a penny for everytime a Wakefield fan crowbarred the word "iconic" into a sentence I'd have 72p now.
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| Quote: bobsmyuncle "The charge was a very comprehensive one against all assets of OK Bulls
If those assets have been sold/transferred to BB2104 then I must assume it is with agreement of the charge holder.
Perhaps it has been satisfied (paid) or a replacement one taken out by BB2014.
Companies house records will soon tell us.'"
It was a standard floating charge ("debenture"icon_wink.gif.
All charges and collection actions are stayed by administration.
The administrator then settles the creditors in ranking order. Floating charge holders first, after preferential claims (effectively, now crown preference is long gone, certain employee claims - irrelevant in this case as they will all have been TUPEd across to Newco).
The chargeholder's consent is not required to appoint administrators. A chargeholder can himself petion the High Court to appoint administrators, but that is a separate issue).
The charge will very definitely not transfer to Newco.
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| Just standing back from the details - how should I as a fan feel about this?
1) The newco has proper accounting expertise on the board, so I feel comfortable this time round the numbers will have been done properly
2) Clearly the RFL has been involved from the start and should understand the situation.
3) Perhaps more importantly for the future OK Bulls Ltd had so much baggage attached to it that no sensible investor/sponsor would have touched it, so newco hopefully will allow genuine investors/sponsors to come in ( and I think there are some) without worrying any investment would go straight into a black hole.
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